Do you accept Christ's statement to Nicodemus that "Ye must be born again?" That means to be saved. Nicodemus accepted that command, repented of his sins, and was saved. The rich young ruler was unwilling to change the lord of his life (money) and went away forever lost.
Lordship Salvation: Is it false?
Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by ReformedBaptist, Aug 5, 2008.
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RB wrote,
That is NOT the message of salvation, by grace though faith in Christ alone!
This exemplifies why the detection of Lordship’s error is difficult for some to pin down. At times MacArthur writes in terms that are biblical and true to Scripture. Once you read how he defines his terms, such as we see in his definition of repentance which necessitates a resolve to a “change of behavior” you begin to see the commitment to works foundation that under girds LS.
There are many examples of Lordship’s departure from the biblical plan of salvation. MacArthur’s conditioning salvation on the willingness to forsake everything is one of those defining and radical expressions of Lordship Salvation that show us it is a works based message.
LM -
peace to you:praying: -
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The Lordship position as taught by JM is that upon regeneration (a change brought about by God) Salvation becomes so important that the regenerate will forsake all to obtain it.
Mathew 13:44 “The kingdom of heaven is like treasure hidden in a field, which a man found and covered up. Then in his joy he goes and sells all that he has and buys that field.
45 “Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a merchant in search of fine pearls, 46 who, on finding one pearl of great value, went and sold all that he had and bought it."
God Regenerates
God Justifies
God Sanctifies
God Glorifies
Salvation is of God beginning to end. Even the ability to accept Christ as Lord is a gift from God. A gift you will possess if you are regenerate.
If you love anything in this world more than Christ, then you are not Saved, if you do not repent, turn from your sin and accept Christ as Lord, you will die and go to Hell.
If Christ is not Lord of your life, then who or what is? Can it save you from Hell?
Disclaimer: This is not an attack on anyone or their Salvation, just an opinion strongly stated.
Soli Deo Gloria -
If you "have it" already, why is there still a need to "forsake all" in order to "obtain it?"
Incidentally, I like the hat in your 'picture.'
"Durn varmits!! Praise the Lord, and pass the ammunition!" :thumbs:
Ed -
Yes, happy to.
In commenting on this passage, John MacArthur writes,
That theme runs like a thread through all three editions of TGATJ. That may sound noble, but that statement defines a gospel of faith plus works.
RB, (Dr. Bob) Do you believe, “Salvation is for those who are willing to forsake everything?
LM -
Regeneration, Justification, Sanctification and Glorification are different parts of the process of Salvation.
Regeneration is the " new birth" , being made alive or new.
Through Regeneration we are awakened so that we may respond to the call to Salvation. Similar to Christ calling Lazarus to come out of the grave. Christ not only commanded Lazarus to come out He also gave him the power to do it, He Regenerated Lazarus.
Regeneration causes us to realize our sinfulness and our need for Christ.
Justification occurs when we ask forgiveness of our sins,repent and accept Christ as Lord and Savior. We are then Justified in His sight.
Sanctification is growing in Christ, this is dying to the flesh and becoming Holy. It is something the Christian will do their entire life with the guidance of the Holy Spirit.
Glorification is receiving our Glorified bodies and enter the presence of Christ as a part of the Bride.
Salvation is now complete. -
What John Macarthur himself says about the Lordship debate-
Introduction to Lordship Salvation
Clarifying the Lordship debate -
I don't see "repented of his sins and was saved" in the text. Which Bible are you reading? -
Ferron:
I my post above I cited JM in context from several of his LS books where he states and reiterates the same theme. I invite you to discuss this.
MacArthur states:
LM -
However, this does not prevent me from answering the question, "Do I believe salvation is for those who are willing to forsake everything?" whether or not it represents JM's teaching.
I would answer the question biblically. What I mean by that is, aside from the background of the LS controvery, I would look at Scripture and its teaching with regard to salvation and the teaching regarding forsaking everything. So here we go...
I will take as my text 1 Peter 1, but my view should not be considered as limited to this text, but this text is a good summary of the salvation of God.
This, very briefly, is how I understand salvation.
What is meant by forsake everything according to Scripture?
The one who does not forsake everything to follow Jesus are not the ones who will inherit eternal life. This is seen in Scripture in the teaching of the Lord Jesus. It is taught in the context of Gospel invitations. Not the silly invitations we see in churches to an alter. But what is meant by Scripture in inviting and calling men to salvation. Here is one such instance.
This is not to be contrued as the doctrine of prefectionsim. It ought to be understood in this manner:
"He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him." 1 John 2:4
And again,
"He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked. " verse 6 of the same chapter, and again, "He that saith he is in the light, and hateth his brother, is in darkness even until now." verse 9
And again,
"If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him." verse 29.
And James bodly declares, "Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone." James 2:17.
Now that I have briefly defined my terms, namely what is meant by salvation and what is meant by forsaking everything, I will restate the question posed to me:
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So despite your previously slyly expressed opinion of my own skills as an "exegete," - skills which I have never claimed, BTW, I will ask another question or three, following up on the above post.
Is what you are saying consistent with the view that I posted three times of Dr. John H. Gerstner, another 'advocate' of Lordship salvation, where he said these things, referring to Zane C. Hodges in The Gospel Under Siege? (My emphases)
This shouldn't be a difficult question that elicits multiple pages of response, IMO.
Ed -
Good luck with that. :tonofbricks:
RB -
I also realize you would have answered my question, were it not that you likely had to prepare soup for the family's dinner, this afternoon.
Ed -
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Otherwise why the Great Commission? Why evangelize? God knows the elect. They will become Christians anyway. After all they are the elect are they not? They have no choice but to be saved whether we witness or not. As far as I understand your position, it negates the very reason one must carry out the Great Commission.
Then why did he not cause the rich young ruler to be born again?
That wasn't very loving on His part was it? Especially when the Bible testifies about God that "He is not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance." Your view seems to have a contradiction in it. Christ causes no one or forces no one to be saved. (some Muslims do). We make that choice. That is made clear in John 3:18. If we choose Christ we are not condemned. If we don't choose Christ we are condemned already. There is a free will, a choice to be made.
What Christ wrought on the cross is the grace that was manifest to us. His salvation was provided there on the cross of Calvary. But it was provided as a free gift for all who desire it. They must make the choice to receive. Man was made in God's image and likeness, which involves having that choice, that ability to reason.
Romans 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
--That is a one time event. It happens only one time in a person's life.
Sanctification is a life-long process.
We become God's elect after we are saved. But God knew about it before we were saved.
See what John says:
1 John 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
How old were you when you were saved? When you were saved did you give up everything? Forsake family, friends, job, give away all your money, sacrifice absolutely everything to follow Christ? I doubt it. Why are you saying that it must be so for others when you do not impose those conditions on yourself?
We grow gradually as believers in the Lord. What did Jude say:
Jude 1:20 But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost,
--If you are already "perfect" what is there to build up?
If you are already going to forsake everything and mature enough to do, what would be left to be built up? Your position does not make much sense.
I have met some Christians that have forsaken all. But they weren't new Christians.
2 Corinthians 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
--1John 3 also explains the same thing. Those who habitually live in a lifestyle of sin are the same ones that are not born again. This has nothing to do with discipleship.
Titus 2:12 Teaching us that,
The grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men teaching us...to deny ungodliness and live soberly and righteously, etc.
Those qualities are learned gradually. They are taught. They are not automatic. It "teaches us." Teaching is a process, and sometimes takes a long time, depending on the student.
But salvation is a one time event.
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However, if one would really rather not answer the question, one excuse ("making soup") is just as good and works about as well as another, I would suppose.
I have recently previously twice posted the above quotes by Dr. Gerstner, but they seemingly were not deemed worthy of any response, by any of the readers, including yourself, and who happens to be a participant, of the thread(s)
http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1270051&postcount=6
http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1267712&postcount=57
whereon they were posted, and in fact, one time was the very person to whom I was directly responding (although I did manage to garner a couple of insults on the thread(s), effectively one or two false allegations by association [my supposed not believing in repentance (although I am on record on the BB, with at least ten posts showing I do believe that repentance is necessary for salvation), and my supposed notbelieving in 'Lordship' (another false allegation, for I, in fact insist that the Lordship of Christ is so clearly declared as to not even be an issue) and a questioning of my integrity, by another poster, along the way.]
I am not particularly bothered by the insults, FTR. But why is that there were no substantive responses to my queries?? :confused:
The questions I pose seem straightforward enough, at least IMO.
Ed -
No one desires God my friend. Your doctrine on free-will is false and heretical. It is, as far as I can see so far, semi-pelagian or full pelagianism.
God either knows infallibly from the beginning or He doesn't. You in quite the pickle now my friend.
But I can agree with your statement too..
The Lord caused me to be born again when I was 20 years old. I am 35 now. And yes, I forsook all to follow Him.
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Again, DHK, I have never advocated perfectionism. Why do you keep reponding to my posts as if I am? Nor have I ever advocated instant sanctification. So what is it that your responding to?
Salvation is NOT a one time event. This is an incomplete and unclear at best, and really bad teaching at worst. Within salvation is justifcation, sanctification, and glorification.
Justification
"For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek." Romans 1:16 "For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation." Romans 10:10.
Sanctification
And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God: Eph 6:17 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. Phil 2:12 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: 2 Thess 2:13
Glorification
Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory. 2 Tim 2:10 Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation? Heb 1:14 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation. Heb 9:28 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. 1 Peter 1:5 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls. 1 Peter 1:9 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. Rev 12:10
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