The scriptures support evolution with a species, but not into different one!
Massive Genetic Study Reveals 90 Percent Of Earth’s Animals Appeared At The Same Time
Discussion in 'Creation vs. Evolution' started by kyredneck, Jun 7, 2018.
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Jesus or one of the Apostles would have remarked that genesis was metaphorical, that there was not one Adam/Eve, that God used evolutionary process, and yet nothing ever said on any of that!
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Baptist Believer Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
Jesus didn’t do miracles for entertainment or to attract crowds. Many of His miracles (water into wine, healings, etc.) were done secretly, or at least, very quietly. Others were done in terms of teaching people or demonstrating that the Kingdom of God was available to them in that moment.
My hermeneutics have not been properly represented in your arguments.
Now I have some questions for you, based on your implied assertions that both Jesus and the Father must work in the same way, and that the Father working through an extended period is somehow subchristian:
(1) Why didn't God create everything in the blink of an eye? Why did He take -- as you interpret Genesis 1 -- six days? Why -- according to your argument -- do you have a low view of God?
(2) Using your argument, the gospel accounts of Jesus are suspect because He did not take six days to heal people. How could Jesus be doing the same works as the Father if He is doing them immediately? (Yes, I know that the Father worked at different rates throughout the Old Testament, but your argument does not recognize that.)
(3) At the sin of Adam and Eve, why didn't the second person of the Triune God suddenly appear, explain His plan, be crucified by Adam and Eve, be buried by them, and then be raised almost immediately so that the world would only be subject to futility for a brief time and that evil would not prevail upon the earth for millennia? Sounds like "paganism" for God to take so long and allow for extended suffering when He could have immediately resolved the problem. Instead, God instituted certain human situations and cultural processes, calling humankind to Him in many different stages including, the call of Abraham, the call of Moses, the giving of the Law and tabernacle worship, Solomon's temple, the Babylonian captivity, the Second Temple, the incarnation of Jesus, the ministry of Jesus, the crucifixion, the resurrection, the ascension, Pentecost, the present age, and the promised return of Christ, judgment, and fullness of redemption in God's kingdom.
Back in college, I had a friend who was an Episcopalian and was planning to enter seminary after completing his music composition studies. He and I talked a few times about the subject of infant baptism. One of his major points about the rightness of infant baptism is that Jesus said nothing against infant baptism. Then he pointed out that infant baptism had been the dominant, nearly universal, practice of Christians for well over 1,000 years of Christendom. Moreover, the Bible doesn’t directly speak against the practice either.
I would counter with the many scriptural examples of believer’s baptism and the need to respond to the call of Jesus, not something that an infant is able to do. In response to some of those arguments, he would say something along the lines of, “Oh, so Jesus and the apostles conveniently left out arguments against infant baptism? Right…” It was an attempt to dismiss the evidence I had provided by asserting that “Jesus and the apostles” obviously held his view.
I hated when he would do that because it meant he was not going to fairly consider scriptural evidence. It was an attempt to “win” an argument for the sake of his ego and well as a bit of self-deception.
Now I don’t want to paint a dark picture of this friend because God used him mightily. He later became an Episcopalian priest and founded a home for orphans in Mexico, before his death at 43. He was a man of God, even though some of his theology was not quite right.
Believing differently about these issues does not make any of us “bad” or separate us from Christ. -
You end up with Accommodation theory, that it was myth teaching us spiritual truth.... -
Baptist Believer Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
Regarding Jonah, I had long held to a historic, literal view of Jonah, but now I am not so sure. I was invited to speak to a church about an hour west of Fort Worth and I was led to preach on the book of Jonah – the whole story at once. While I was preparing, I realized that the best way to preach the book was to tell the story as a storytelling might tell it around the family table or a campfire. So I went through the translation of the book and smoothed out some of the awkward phrasing (double-checking the Hebrew to ensure accuracy) and then printed out the story and started rehearsing it. After a day or two, I had the story nearly memorized, word for word. When I went to the church, I told the story which ends with a question to Jonah (and to us) about the LORD’s compassion. That naturally led to a section where I made clear the lessons of the story, including God’s compassion vs. Jonah’s contempt, God’s compassion for Jonah despite his hatred on Ninevah, and God’s ability to use horribly-flawed people, among other points.
While I was telling the story to a congregation that was spellbound by the story (especially the children), I realized that the story is told in hyperbole and has a few strange elements that make sense in a story, but not in a literal, historical sense. The stories has places where people are supposed to laugh (“…and the LORD sent a worm…” being the biggest one in my experience, with the line about Jonah being “vomited” onto dry land), as well as some fantastical elements of animals in sackcloth and ashes, repenting for the sins of the land.
Now when I look at Jonah, I think it is quite likely an inspired Old Testament parable instead of a literal, historical account. I don’t make an issue of it either way.
Haven't you ever noticed Genesis 5:1-2?
Genesis 5:1-2
This is the book of the generations of Adam [אָדָ֑ם– transliterated, “Adam”]. In the day when God created man [אָדָ֔ם– literally, “Adam”, but usually interpreted as humankind], He made him in the likeness of God. He created them male [זָכָ֥ר– an adjective indicating “masculine”] and female [וּנְקֵבָ֖ה – a noun meaning “feminine”], and He blessed them and named them Man [אָדָ֔ם– literally, “Adam”, but usually interpreted as humankind] in the day when they were created.
So Genesis itself uses Adam to indicate all of humanity, both male and female. -
Baptist Believer Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
I have already explained how both Jesus and Paul likely understand Genesis, giving scripture to illustrate the point. It may not "make sense" to you, but it makes sense to me and many other people, including some of the finest scholars in the world.
Jesus used stories that were not literally and historically true to teach us spiritual truth. And that is not necessarily "accommodation theory" (whatever that means to you) because people of that era and culture understood stories and myths much better than we do in our culture.
In our culture, when we begin with the words, "Once upon a time...", our audience knows that we are telling a story that is probably not literally, historically true, but we are not intending to deceive. We have to have verbal cues like that in our culture because we are not adept (in Western, 21st century society) at recognizing metaphor and myth when it is told. The Genesis stories of creation are quite similar in form to other cosmological myths of the culture (using similar themes and images), but are radically different in how they portray God, humankind, our purposes, and the ordering of creation. Seem in the context of the culture, it is clear it is a true myth. -
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Were the demon possessions really happening at time of Christ? Did the Donkey really speak? Did God and 2 Angels vist Abraham, and then the angels destroyed Sodom? -
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Baptist Believer Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
Matthew 12:38-41
Then some of the scribes and Pharisees said to Him, “Teacher, we want to see a sign from You.” But He answered and said to them, “An evil and adulterous generation craves for a sign; and yet no sign will be given to it but the sign of Jonah the prophet; for just as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the sea monster, so will the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth. The men of Nineveh will stand up with this generation at the judgment, and will condemn it because they repented at the preaching of Jonah; and behold, something greater than Jonah is here.
Let’s break it down carefully:
Then some of the scribes and Pharisees said to Him, “Teacher, we want to see a sign from You.”
The scribes and Pharisees wanted to see a sign that would be indisputable (as if that existed for unbelieving hearts), so they pressed Jesus on the matter.
But He answered and said to them, “An evil and adulterous generation craves for a sign; and yet no sign will be given to it but the sign of Jonah the prophet
So Jesus tells them that He is not there to do tricks for evil and unbelieving people. Instead, He directs them to the well-known tale of Jonah, the prophet and draws a comparison:
… for just as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the sea monster, so will the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
Jesus compares Himself to Jonah’s three day and three night experience in the belly of the monster to His upcoming time in the tomb, which He non-literally calls “the heart of the earth. His time in the tomb is also not literally “three days and three nights,” simply three days and two nights (although some work very hard to make it fit since they insist that Jesus must me literal here), and Jonah is alive in the belly of the monster while Jesus is physically dead while in the tomb. Jesus is not using literalism here, He is making a reference to a story that they would know that has symbolic resonance for them.
The men of Nineveh will stand up with this generation at the judgment, and will condemn it because they repented at the preaching of Jonah; and behold, something greater than Jonah is here.
Why did Jesus use the example of Jonah? Because of the three-day reference AND so He can compare His accusers to the men of Ninevah who did repent because of a simple declaration from Jonah, “Yet forty days and Nineveh will be overthrown.”
But Jesus is greater than Jonah and He is giving them all kinds of evidence.
That being said, I think you can make a much better case for Jonah being a literal, historical person based on Matthew 12:41 because of a reference to men who heard Jonah being at the judgment, than a simple reference by Jesus in Matthew 12:40.
Now, back to your question: “…was [Jesus] wrong or right?”
Jesus was obviously right that His death and resurrection would be the only sign that evil and unbelieving people would necessarily get.
But in light of our discussion, you are asking a question that Jesus is not addressing. He is simply making a scriptural reference, not asserting that it is literal history.
Again, I just want to point out that I lean toward Jonah being an allegory, but I have no problem with it being literal and historical. I also want to point out that it make NO DIFFERENCE whether or not it is an allegory or literal and historical in regard to the teaching of Jesus.
Just because I reference the prodigal son that Jesus talked about doesn’t mean that I think he was real. That's not logical or biblical. -
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Baptist Believer Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
I have noticed a pattern in our discussion. You feel free to quiz me about everything – sometimes the same question over and over – yet you are quite unwilling to tackle any of the questions I have raised in this thread, or even substantially respond to evidence that I have provided… for instance, how the writer of Genesis uses “Adam” to mean the male and female of humankind.
Why do you avoid engaging with the evidence I provide? -
Genesis 3:20 one Adam, God created from his rib one Eve, who was One mother over all who live after her. Truth, or some type of myth? -
Baptist Believer Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
You need to think through this very carefully -- Does scripture self-identify your favorite passages as "proof" of six, 24-hour, day creationism, or are those YOUR proofs?
Genesis 5:2
"He created them male and female, and He blessed them and named them Man [literally, the Hebrew says "adam"] in the day when they were created."
So, is Genesis 5:2 true or false? If true, my point is made. If false, you are rejecting scripture you don't like. -
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Baptist Believer Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
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Baptist Believer Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
Thank you for finally acknowledging that point.
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