Thanks, GB. That is possibly generally true, but not universally so. Many untrained people know they are not trained, in both the spiritual and natural realms. For example, I am untrained in HVAC repair, and all attempts to make any repairs is strong evidence of that fact!
Minimum Education
Discussion in 'Baptist Colleges & Seminaries' started by Rhetorician, Jan 23, 2006.
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One of my major problems with the formal educational system is that they almost invariably claim to impart some knowledge that a man can't come by on his own. That, I believe, is exactly what John was addressing when he talked about those who would "seduce" God's people and asserted that they had "no need that man teach" them.
John certainly did not mean to rule out the importance of instruction in the Scriptures. He did mean to say that there is not some humanistic knowledge that a man can't get through the Scriptures by the power of the Holy Spirit.
If seminary was reduced to simply studying the Bible, then it would cease being seminary and would just be a bunch of men getting together to study the Bible. With that I would have no problem.
Mark Osgatharp -
Mark Osgatharp -
exscentric Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
Think this thread is proving the point that snobbery has no up and down the nose to it, it is at both ends :D
Personal opinion here guys, but I'd rather have the requirement of three years of seminary instead of the requirement of some of the reformers for preparation for the ministry - one of the many requirements was to memorize the New Testament :eek:
Since it is God that calls, and God that leads, and God that prepares I'd guess He can take care of it either way -
Mark Osgatharp </font>[/QUOTE]The extra-Biblical stuff is to keep you from being a complete ignoramus! How many times have I cringed at a preacher spouting nonsense because he didn’t know science, history, etc.? It made a very poor testimony for the Gospel. No wonder the unbelieving world thinks Christians are ignorant rednecks or religious snake oil salesmen. Too many of our spokesmen are not as knowledgeable as secular men and lose all credibility. And, this is in part due to an uninformed bias against education. On the other hand, you really don't seem very knowledgeable of what is actually taught at seminary. -
Broadus has stated, and I agree, that seminary is not mandatory. One can achieve the same thing, except for the influence of godly teachers, through study on his own. However, I question how many pastors actually study and become as knowledgeable as if they had gone to seminary? How many can the seminary opponents name that learned Greek and Hebrew on their own. How many read and studied more than needed for the next message or lesson? I predict that there are more who don't than do. Furthermore, these tends to be gaps in self-study since the student has no one to guide who has gone this way before.
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However, that doesn't address the issue at hand at all. If a man is knowledgeable in the Scriptures he can preach the Scriptures, which is what God called him to do, and leave the science and history to those who do know something about it.
Having said that, I also note that many who are throughly "educated" in "science" and "history" are spouting nonsense for the simple reason that a lot of what passes as science and history is just made up tripe made to sound good by the educational establishment. For example, the theory of evolution. For another example, the theory that the Baptist churches were founded by John Smyth in the 17th century.
Mark Osgatharp -
Rhetorician AdministratorAdministrator
Points to ponder:
Whereas, the world is so technologically advanced;
Whereas, our people are mobile and move about more and more;
Whereas, with many people within our churches and outside our churches who are highly educated in so many fields;
Whereas, being a minister of the Gospel is just not the simple "country Pastor's role" any longer (even in the country);
Whereas, there will more than likely be "Doctors," "Lawyers," and "Indian Chiefs" in our congregations;
Whereas, many of these professionals will have multiple degrees in their own disciplines;
Whereas, God has called us to be the prophetic voice within the church and to speak His righteousness to those without His church;
Does it not follow axiomatically that:
The highest calling demands the best not the least formal education & mentoring.
Those to whom we minister, especially professionals in their own fields, should have someone who is on par with them in their fields.
A general and working knowledge, at least a conversational knowledge of the broader world is necessary to be informed so we can relate this Gospel to those within and those without.
There is more to being a "pastor/teacher" today than it was even one generation ago.
People have other problems that we as ministers need to be able to see, get them some other professional help, and not just tell them "to read the Bible and Pray and God will take care of it." Even though Bible Study and prayer work some of the time, they do not always work alone in a vacuum.
That there are great men, great movements, great revivals, great church history events and people, great secular historical events and people, the Biblical Languages, technological advances, great philolophers, great orators; and many other disciplines, people, schools of thought, and such that cry out to be heard and brought to our people in our everyday life and from the pulpit.
It seems that formal education &/or mentoring demand that a 21st Century pastor be a "Renaissance (sp) Man."
rd -
Rhet good post. Allow me to duck with you. ;)
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Rhetorician AdministratorAdministrator
Another point to ponder:
It seems that the great Apostle Paul had equipped himself to be one of the greatest of Jewish rulers. And in God's sovereignty, he was even given Roman Citizenship.
With his gifts, calling, cultural knowledge, multi-level "world views," his understandings of Greek and Roman philosophy, his understandings of the Greek and Roman poets, the inner workings of his own Roman standing, his ability to earn his own living "making tents," his insightful understnadings of the Hebrew Scripture & customs & culture, all coupled with HIS EDUCATIONAL backgrounds; he was able to go more places, speak in more contexts, and have more of an impact than those "unlearned and ignorant" fishermen.
Oh, by the by; those with little cultural knowledge outside of their own little Jewish universe had a hard time in the beginning understanding that this was a "Gospel for the world." (See: Galatians and the Acts Church Council for details).
I know God is sovereign and all of that, but Paul could not have been used to spread the Gospel to such far reaches if he had not had such an outstanding religious and secular EDUCATION!
It seems to me!
rd -
With that education Paul persecuted Christians. It wasn't until after God worked in his life and set him straight that he became the Apostle Paul.
So it's not the education that makes Paul, without the Holy Ghost Paul was not a man to be treasured by Christians. -
The education which Saul had received was used by God as an aid in traveling on his missionary journeys, interacting with the locals, evangelizing, understanding the law and responding to it rightly, organizing churches, etc.
We as pastors don't live in a Christian ghetto and neither do our people. We must be grounded in the Word---that's a given. We must also aid our people in responding biblically to the insidious philosophies and practices which come at them daily via different media. A good education helps a person learn how to learn. It is not the all in all. The student is always a student, and a good, solid, biblical education will equip him to continue his "education" long after he graduates.
I wonder if some react so strongly to the idea of seminary because they have never been and feel they must justify their not going. Maybe someone will start a thread with something like "I did not go to Bible college or seminary and here's why."
I think it's a mistake to claim that one doesn't need training for the ministry because one has the Holy Spirit. 1 John 2:26-27 cannot be used for support. Paul's writing against the wisdom of this world is not part of that equation, unless one wished to apply that to going to seminaries which deny the infallibility and authority of the Word (1 Cor 1:18ff.). An education under godly professors is not worldly wisdom.
One may say that one has the Bible and that is all one needs. What about the use, then, of Bible commentaries and other biblical aids?
Bill -
Rhetorician
I am starting to get where you come from by your above post.
{SNIP}
Starting to get clearer now.
[ January 27, 2006, 08:35 AM: Message edited by: TomVols ] -
None of the Indian Chiefs I know would feel comfortable attending church with the attitude I sense coming from many here.
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I think some of you may be misunderstanding the objections that have been raised. Going back to my original and main objection -- we should not add to or take away from what God requires.
Paul has been raised as an example, and I think that he obviously had much more "formal education" than the other apostles. But the Bible never distinguishes one above the other (either "vice or versa"). Also, it might be insightful to think about the fact that, in spite of Paul's education, the haughty philosophers at Mars Hill thought of Paul as a "seed-picker" (babbler, fool, possibly someone who picked up bits and pieces of knowledge randomly). -
One consideration is that those of us who esteem a quality, godly education do not see this as an "either/or" situation---that is either a good education or Holy Spirit calling and empowerment. Rather, it is a "both/and." A good education is in no way the only or even the most important criterion for a successful minister. One's personal persuit of godliness, one's dependence upon God to change lives, one's humility is ascribing all glory to God and not one's own ingenuity for whatever "success" may take place---these are obviously more important than a good education or training. Why must one choose one or the other?
I reiterate---go for the best training you can get, but don't leave the other virtues unattended.
Bill -
The Holy Spirit equips us for meaningful and fruitful service in the church.
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B. Do you think people who don't have a formal education don't know about or use technology?
B. When you put all the doctors, lawyers, and Indian chiefs together, do you realize how low their ratio is - even in metropolitan areas - compared to other workers?
It has always been this way, in city or country, in every age.
B. I'm still trying to figure out why a doctor, lawyer or Indian chief needs a different sort of minister than a machine shop operator, Wal-Mart clerk, or scrap iron dealer.
Perhaps you could fill me in with some SPECIFIC details.
Mark Osgatharp -
If it were not for the educated nobody would have an English translation of the Bible.
What many do not realize is that so often those who think they do not need an education actually rely on the educated to write books which they can read. -
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