'The Council of Trent describes the process of salvation from sin in the case of an adult with great minuteness (Sess. VI, v-vi).
DHK said: 'No the Catholic Church has never taught salvation by grace'
The Catholic Encyclopedia: Salvation
It begins with the grace of God which touches a sinner's heart, and calls him to repentance. This grace cannot be merited; it proceeds solely from the love and mercy of God. Man may receive or reject this inspiration of God, he may turn to God or remain in sin. Grace does not constrain man's free will.'
Mormon and Jehovah's witness
Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by zrs6v4, Dec 18, 2009.
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Romans 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work. -
This last statement of the Catechism is the most heretical of all and demonstrates how works is a must for salvation. If the church does not “cooperate” (through works) “in the liturgy” (a work) there is no salvation. There must be cooperation. If there isn’t, there is no salvation. Again, let me emphasize, according to the RCC, THE WORK OF CHRIST IS NOT SUFFICIENT and therefore they have a gospel of works and not of grace. -
Lori,
The truth Lori is that Mary IS the object of goddess worship, dead catholics ARE treated as Gods, the mass IS blasphemous, the Catholic Church IS apostate and filled with wickedness, idolatry, false teaching, etc etc etc. -
JohnDeereFan Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
I used to post on Catholic.com (where I was banned for sharing the Gospel. Go figure!). And the attitude was that it didn't matter how long you were Catholic or how much education in Catholic beliefs you had as a Catholic, the moment you walk out the door to become a Christian, you immediately forget everything you ever knew or were ever taught.
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JohnDeereFan Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
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JohnDeereFan Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
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JohnDeereFan Well-Known MemberSite Supporterlori4dogs said:Then you got this guy, John MacArthur, making false statements about purgatory. He is either lying or doesn't know what he is talking about. I want to believe the later.Click to expand...
Could you please give us examples of these "false statements", along with citations?
The Catholic Church teaches we are saved by grace.Click to expand...
When a Catholic talks about salvation by grace, he may truly believe he is saved by grace, but the Catholic idea of grace is imparted and kept by works and rituals.
The Catholic Church has always taught that we are saved by grace.Click to expand...
lori4dogs said:He makes the usual dribble...Click to expand...
about saint worshipClick to expand...
inventing purgatory for the purpose of making moneyClick to expand...
(not to mention he says 'it is a second chance to get into heaven) re-sacrificing Christ at every mass, etc.Click to expand...
I'm glad you don't agree with his 'by definition, Catholics aren't Christians' and that salvation is on an individual basis, person by person.Click to expand...
The statistics among protestants is much more telling.
Steep decline in membership, embracing same-sex marriages, promoting abortion, denying Christ divinity, denying the resurrection, denying the virgin birth, promoting universalism, referring to the Atonement as 'divine child abuse', and the lists goes on and on.Click to expand...
Second, the problem with your claim is that Christianity doesn't embrace these things institutionally. Catholicism does, by definition, embrace Catholic heresies.
The third difference is that you fail to take into account (a) that these beliefs are only a very small minority and that (b) the vast majority of Christians actually speak out against these things.
You want to talk about decline and heretical teachings. Take a good look at protestantism in America.Click to expand... -
Amazing how a thread regarding 'Mormon and Jehovah's witness' turns into a Roman Catholic bashing thread...
I honestly haven't clicked on this thread until i saw it was at 23 pages and wondered, what could the discussion possibly be about...now i know...the same 'ol dribble...lol
In XC
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Thinkingstuff Active Memberannsni said: ↑You do know the joke about how the Catholic grows it's church, don't you? By having more babies. :)Click to expand...
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Thinkingstuff Active MemberDHK said: ↑No, the Catholic Church has never taught salvation by grace.
First it doesn't know what grace is.
Second, it has redefined grace for its own devious purposes.
Third, it says one must is saved by keeping the seven sacraments. Keeping anything is doing something or working. Salvation is not of works.
Baptism is essential for salvation. Baptism is a work.
One must continue to keep the Ten Commandments for salvation. It is a process of doing works.
One can never know for sure if they will go to heaven because they never know if they have done enough good works.
Salvation is not of grace; it is of works in the RCC. It is a works based salvation. There is nothing of grace involved in it.
Grace is redefined in that the RCC will say that holy water is a means of receiving grace, or baptism is a means of receiving grace. See how nonsensical that is? As if H2O can be a means of giving grace??? That belief has as much credence as Hindus being baptized in the Ganges River thinking that the polluted waters of that river will wash away their sins.
If salvation were by grace there would be no need for Purgatory. For by grace your sins would be paid for. Since salvation is by works, one must pay for their sins in purgatory. Jesus didn't do a good enough job on the cross. HIS GRACE WAS NOT SUFFICIENT Thus works are needed.Click to expand...
You river analogy is only sufficient in that baptism is believed to was away sins. But you miss on an important aspect. After faith is acheived. Now with infant baptism Faith is held in trust for the child by the church and parents and God parents.
The Catholic contention is that Christ's work on the cross was suffiecient in everything it set out to do. Include sanctify his disciples. Jesus wants more than Just declaration of justification but to have us be indeed sanctified in our lives. We are actually saying the same thing when you get down to it.
Baptist: works are evident that you are saved
Catholics: works are evident that salvation is working in you.
Niether believe works alone save. Faith saves. Faith leads to works. No works no faith. -
Thinkingstuff said: ↑Though I feel slighted about the discussion with being born again. I find DHK in this matter of Salvation by grace you are misinformed. The Catholic Church teaches salvation by grace not works. Works are only in effect once the path of salvation is chosen. Therefore works are the resulting effect of that salvation.
You river analogy is only sufficient in that baptism is believed to was away sins. But you miss on an important aspect. After faith is acheived. Now with infant baptism Faith is held in trust for the child by the church and parents and God parents.
The Catholic contention is that Christ's work on the cross was suffiecient in everything it set out to do. Include sanctify his disciples. Jesus wants more than Just declaration of justification but to have us be indeed sanctified in our lives. We are actually saying the same thing when you get down to it.
Baptist: works are evident that you are saved
Catholics: works are evident that salvation is working in you.
Niether believe works alone save. Faith saves. Faith leads to works. No works no faith.Click to expand... -
Thinkingstuff said: ↑The Catholic contention is that Christ's work on the cross was suffiecient in everything it set out to do. Include sanctify his disciples. Jesus wants more than Just declaration of justification but to have us be indeed sanctified in our lives. We are actually saying the same thing when you get down to it.
Baptist: works are evident that you are saved
Catholics: works are evident that salvation is working in you.
Niether believe works alone save. Faith saves. Faith leads to works. No works no faith.Click to expand...
A lot of that is simply "making stuff up" on top of the already Biblically established doctrine on sanctification.
in Christ,
Bob -
lori4dogs said: ↑The Catholic Church teaches we are saved by grace. You are wrong. This has been discussed ad nauseum. You aren't going to change your position and the Church just doesn't teach what you say it does.
Do you agree with the 'purgatory is a second chance at heaven' `John MacArthur claims the Catholic Church teaches?
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Then you got this guy, John MacArthur, making false statements about purgatory. He is either lying or doesn't know what he is talking about. I want to believe the later.Click to expand...
I thought his point was that the invention of purgatory enables access to heaven for a vastly wider group (i.e all that go to purgatory - will eventually get to heaven). Did I miss something in his sermon at that point?
in Christ,
Bob -
Thinkingstuff Active MemberBobRyan said: ↑While I can agree with the Catholic Church on the Bible fact that sanctification is a key part of the Gospel that we find in scripture -- I cannot agree that the blood of Christ does not cover the "after-life" debt/punishment "owed" for so-called venial sins. I cannot agree that payment for such debt can be "purchased" via indulgences. I cannot agree that eating bread is the way we have grace enter our being or soul. I cannot agree that the arbitrary hoops and hurdles thought up by a local priest become the means God would use for sanctification. I cannot agree with the idea of "so many days indulgence" granted for specific RCC thought-up activities.
A lot of that is simply "making stuff up" on top of the already Biblically established doctrine on sanctification.
in Christ,
BobClick to expand... -
BobRyan said: ↑I listened to that 9 minute segment carefully and did not catch the point where John says that Catholics think of purgatory as "a second chance" at heaven.
I thought his point was that the invention of purgatory enables access to heaven for a vastly wider group (i.e all that go to purgatory - will eventually get to heaven). Did I miss something in his sermon at that point?
in Christ,
BobClick to expand... -
Thinkingstuff said: ↑I understand what you mean. However, I think you have a misunderstanding of what the Catholic church is talking about with venial sins. ( I never liked catagorizing sin but they do it). Venial sins are those things that aren't necissarily sin in and of themselves. Ie I like to watch TV. Not a problem in an of itself. However, I spend a lot of my time watching TV and programing with questionable content and am not willing to stop then I've sinned in that I've given my attachments to the world rather than God. Maybe that's a poor example. Basically its those things which we chose instead of God but in and of themselves aren't necissarily bad. Venial sins in this respect is very personal. And change in intensity and offence based on the person. Purgatory I agree is speculative. However, when we die what attachments do we still have to this world that we haven't subjected to God? I believe when we see God after death (in an instantaneous fashion) all worldly desires will be burned up in the Glory of God as his light chases away the darkness of my misconcieved notions that this corrupt world left. Now purgatory is saying much the same thing except rather than instantaneous its has a consept of time but itself being outside of time; time has no relevance. I think this is how the catholics view this aspect of after death with regard to venial sins.Click to expand...
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Thinkingstuff said: ↑Though I feel slighted about the discussion with being born again. I find DHK in this matter of Salvation by grace you are misinformed. The Catholic Church teaches salvation by grace not works. Works are only in effect once the path of salvation is chosen. Therefore works are the resulting effect of that salvation.Click to expand...
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Thinkingstuff said: ↑Though I feel slighted about the discussion with being born again. I find DHK in this matter of Salvation by grace you are misinformed.Click to expand...
The Catholic Church teaches salvation by grace not works.Click to expand...
Works are only in effect once the path of salvation is chosen. Therefore works are the resulting effect of that salvation.Click to expand...
You river analogy is only sufficient in that baptism is believed to was away sins. But you miss on an important aspect. After faith is acheived. Now with infant baptism Faith is held in trust for the child by the church and parents and God parents.Click to expand...
The Catholic contention is that Christ's work on the cross was suffiecient in everything it set out to do.Click to expand...
Include sanctify his disciples. Jesus wants more than Just declaration of justification but to have us be indeed sanctified in our lives.Click to expand...
We are actually saying the same thing when you get down to it.
Baptist: works are evident that you are saved
Catholics: works are evident that salvation is working in you.Click to expand...
Romans 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
The Bible itself declares that it is either grace or works. You cannot have both. The RCC has declared that salvation is of works. Works, as you have declared are necessary for salvation. That eliminates grace. There is no grace in salvation in the RCC. It is impossible according to the Bible.
Niether believe works alone save. Faith saves. Faith leads to works. No works no faith.Click to expand...
Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. -
JohnDeereFan Well-Known MemberSite SupporterThinkingstuff said: ↑I think thats a great way for growth. Its in line with scriptures.Click to expand...
Does the Bible teach that church membership is for those who are saved, or merely for the children of church members, whether they're saved or not saved?
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