Obedience

[ONENESS]

Originally posted by El_Guero:
There have been many non-Christian beliefs on the board lately ...

Oneness do you believe in the 3 Persons of God revealed in His Word?

No I do not. I do not deny the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, I just simply do not believe the bible teaches they are seperated.

 

[ONENESS]

Originally posted by MEE:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by DHK:

Recently We had our first child. In the short time that Dawson has been here I have learned many things, but one stands out in my mind more than the rest, and that is this: Dawson is pure and innocent.

That is not what the Bible teaches. The Bible teaches that he is a lost sinner the day he was born, condemned to Hell, in need of a Saviour. He was born with a sin nature. You don't have to teach him to lie and sin. You have to teach him to tell the truth and do right. He does things contrary to God's laws naturally because he has inherited the sin nature of Adam. In no way is he innocent and pure. He is a liar, and he was born that way.

DHK </font>[/QUOTE]DHK, this is a low blow! I didn't think that even you could stoop so low and be so cruel. What kind of a man are you anyway?

This baby is approximately 4 months old and you know if it was to die today that it would inherit the kingdom of heaven. Why do you want to torment this young father that way?

I know Brian knows better, but your terminolgy/opinion is very hurtful!

There are probably a lot, on this board, that agree, but are afraid to express their feelings, since you are a moderator!

MEE

[/QUOTE]

MEE, thank you so much. But I was kind of curious to know what wicked lies your kids told as soon as they came out of the womb? LOL, what a misconception.

[ March 01, 2005, 03:49 AM: Message edited by: DHK ]

 

[ONENESS]

Originally posted by av1611jim:
There are some on this thread who have referred to this passage to justify baptism for salvation. Let's really LOOK at what Jesus said.


Joh 3:3
Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
We all seem to agree with this one, don't we?
4
Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
Nicodemus is confused. He thinks Jesus is talking about PHYSICAL THINGS.
5
Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
Jesus clarifies Himself. He is saying there are TWO births. One is physical. One is Spiritual. This is why He states water and Spirit.
6
That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
Jesus then makes this quite plain. The FLESH birth is WATER. (Haven't you ever seen a "water bag" break during birth?) There is NO baptism in view here. The SPIRIT birth is OF THE SPIRIT OF GOD.

Really quite simple. This very Scripture is one in which my Pastor could not answer. Among other Scriptures He could not answer Biblically, is why I LEFT the UPC.I used to be UPC, so I KNOW what it is ya'll are trying to teach. It just IS NOT THERE!

Doubting Thomas; I have intentionally IGNORED you because I was off topic. If you wish to debate the issue, do a search about Kingdom Exclusion. It has been addressed sufficiently before in several threads on this board. I won't go into it again, that is unless you wish to do it via PM.

In HIS service;
Jim

What was the question your pastor could not answer?

 

[ONENESS]

Originally posted by Briguy:
Hi all. Just a couple more points. Who are "works" done for? Who do they "show" something to? Our works could never prove to God what is in our heart. God sees the heart directly. We cannot "prove" anything to God for he already knows everything. When a person is hurt and I help them, God is not in Heaven watching to see what I will do, He already knows. I cannot get salvation or keep salvation by doing things that God already knew I would do. Take time to ponder that logic because it is very important. Ask yourself this: Why would he save me in the first place if He knew that by my works I would later fail? (that is for the one who's works fall short of God's perfection).

Also, think on this: How much "works" are needed to maintain salvation?

and: What percentage of obedience is enough for me to get saved? and what percentage to keep me saved? (Is 30% obedience enough?, 50%? - surely 80% would do the trick? right?)

I say this to keep some of you from a slippery slope that leads to stress and guilt.

I hope this post generates more response then my last post, which you all avoided like the plague.

In Christ,
Brian

Brian, I have always considered you a very nice person. Thanks for your politeness in every conversation we have had. I just hope my responses have always been the same toward you.

Our works could never prove to God what is in our heart. God sees the heart directly. We cannot "prove" anything to God for he already knows everything.

Excellent Point, works should not be done to show someone how good we are or how good we can be. Works are done b/c we love God and want to please him.

You are also right, we cannot prove anything to God. But our works are supposed to be a witness to those who are around us. Not that we have anything to prove to the world, but we do have an obligation to embrace the world, to stand out, to be light , and to be salt.. Our relationship with God should be evident by our works. And the world will see our works long before they see our heart. God looks on the inside, man looks on the outside.

Also, think on this: How much "works" are needed to maintain salvation?

I’m not real sure how to answer that. I will say that we must abide in Christ for him to abide in us. He tells us in John 15 that if we do not abide in him he will not abide in us. So what does it take for us to abide in him? Faith. God requires faith. For without faith it is impossible to please God (Heb 11:6). Faith will motivate us to abide.

Now that we know that it requires faith to abide, what does it really mean to abide? I think Paul summed it up the best when he said “I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith (2 Tim 4:7).

We are in a race, and the bible tells us in Hebs 12:1 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset [us], and let us run with patience the race that is set before us.

What percentage of obedience is enough for me to get saved? and what percentage to keep me saved? (Is 30% obedience enough?, 50%? - surely 80% would do the trick? right?)

I don’t know what percentage of obedience is enough. But I do no what percentage is not enough, and that’s 0%.

I hope this post generates more response then my last post, which you all avoided like the plague

It took a little while but there it is. I was not avoiding just procrastinating

Lord bless
Brian

 

[ONENESS]

I want my picture under my name like everyone else...how can i get it there?

 

[dianetavegia]

Sent you a pm.

 

[ONENESS]

thanks

 

[El_Guero]

Diane,

We should correct your post to reflect what should be done to get his picture into the scheme of things.

Admit the Trinity...

It is easy ... AND it is Biblical.

Tradition and ease of fit are not the qualifiers though. Biblical is. Christ is the image of, but He is not the Father. Col 1: 15-23 ...

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by ONENESS:

Show me in the bible where it says you have to believe in the Trinity. Show me in the Bible where there is a Trinity. Show me in the Bible where is says Christ is a Seperate person. You have as long as you want, b/c you are going to need it to find one place in the bible that Jesus is a seperat person from God.[/QUOTE
Your right you don't have to believe in the trinity. You can believe in anything you want to. That is the essence of soul liberty, and one of the cardinal tenets that Baptists have fought for throughout the centuries. If you choose to be a J.W. I will support your "right" to be one, but certainly not the doctrine that you would espouse. People fled to this nation because of persecution of the state religion to have the freedom to practice their own religion (soul liberty), whether or not their religion was actually the "right one." You can believe whatever you want. No one will stop you. That is your right. That is soul liberty--the right to believe what you believe to be right without government interference or any other authoritative interference such as church hierarchy or state church.

On the other hand if you call yourself a Christian, yes, you have to believe in the trinity. If you say you believe the Bible, yes, you must believe in the trinity. If you don't you put yourself outside the mainstream of Christianity and into the realm of a cult.

The trinity teaches that there are three persons and yet one God. All that needs to be shown, therefore are the beliefs that: (1) there is only one God. (2) God the Father--taken for granted that He is God throughout the Bible, (3) That Jesus Christ is God, (4) That the Holy Spirit is God.

1. There is only one God.
Isaiah 43:10-11 Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.
11 I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.
--clear enough?

2. In every case, the Father is always referred to as God.
Matthew 6:9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.

3. Christ is God.
John 10:30-33 I and my Father are one.
31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.
32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?
33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.

Were the Jews so ignorant that they did not understand the language, and what Jesus was saying? No, they understood exactly what He was saying. He wasn't claiming to be one in purpose. He was claiming to be one in essence, part of the same triune Godhead. Therefore they took up stones to stone him with. Why? They say it themselves: "Because thou, being a man makest thyself God."

3. The Holy Spirit is God.
In Acts 5 Ananias and Sappira conspired together to deceive the people, play the hypocrite, and tell them that they were giving the total price of the land when the weren't. The sin was really one of hypocrisy, but it involved lying. What does Peter say about it?

Acts 5:3 But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land?

Acts 5:4 Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God.

They had lied to the Holy Ghost, who is God. By the way, you can't lie to an influence or any such thing; you lie to a person. The Holy Spirit is a person, whom Ananias and Sapphira lied to. He is the third person of the triune Godhead.

So, yes; If you call yourself a Christian, and you say you believe the Bible you must believe in the trinity. Otherwise you can believe anything you want.

1 John 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

I did not say I agree in what they believe about being born again, I just said they believe you have to be born again. And the bible teaches you have to be born again.

True, but why bring it up in that light if you don't believe it. The truth is your belief is far more similar to theirs than the Biblical teaching of the New Birth. You both beieve in baptismal regeneration--a heresy.

Psalms 58:3 The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.

I don't know if I should upset b/c you think my son will go to hell if he dies, or if I should laugh b/c you think all babies are born wiked and know how to speak fresh out of the womb.

Laugh?? Are you going to mock God's Holy Word because you don't understand it or don't believe it. That is the cruel thing here, not my words. I am only the messenger. Those words are God's words, not mine. He said it, not me. If you refuse to believe God in this matter, then who will you believe? What does Psalm 58:3 say: "They go astray as soon as they be born speaking lies." Do you have a problem with that? Then take it up with God, not me.

Wait, maybe your right, I do remember Dawson telling his mom and me we wern't his parents. Silly me, how did I foreget that Lie he told as soon as he came out of her womb. MY BAD

I don't understand how you can take that verse to mean what you say. It's a prayer of David against the Wicked.

Prayer or no prayer, it was a statement of fact. We are all wicked. We all go astray as soon as we are born. David's own testimony collaborates this.

Psalms 51:5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.
--But wait! You dismissed this verse too, didn't you?

There are a multitude of verses that teach that we are born sinners. But lets approach it this way. The only man that was ever created without any sin was Adam (and Eve). They alone had no sin when they came into this world. Thus the necessity of the virgin birth. The only reason for the virgin birth was for Christ to enter this world without a sin nature. Otherwise, he could have been born out of a union between Joseph and Mary. What is the significance of the virgin birth in your theology if every infant is born without sin--innocent? Your belief results in a denial of the necessity of the virgin birth. It also is the same belief that has been condemned by Protestants throughout ages by the Catholic Church in relation to Mary--the Immaculate Conception. If the doctrine that Mary was immaculately conceived without sin is such heresy, then how much more is your son being conceived without sin heresy?

You are not familiar with precepts in the word of God are you?

No it never tells us in John 3 that the water is baptism. But on the other hand it never tells us that it is not.

Yes it does. To say that it is baptism violates the precepts taught in the rest of the Bible, contrary to what you just stated. One poster already gave you a viable alternative to what the water could mean. There is yet another interpretation. But it certainly does not mean baptism. Christ does not contradict himself, neither the Bible.

You have to colate what the rest of Scripture says to determine what it means. If you would just study the Bible a little closer you would be able to see all the people who were being born of the water and the spirit in Acts. (Acts 2,8,19,22:16) You would be able to see that Jesus commanded us to be baptized in Matt 28, Mark 16, Luke 24 John 3:3. You could see what the apostles said about it in Romans 6:4, Col 2:12, 1 Pet 3:21.

The rest of the Bible??
You mean verses like:
"Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved."
"If thou shalt confess with thy mouth and believe in thy heart that Jesus Christ is Lord thou shalt be saved."
"Call upon the name of the Lord and thou shalt be saved"

You mean verses like that.
Do you mean where, Jesus said unto him, "I am the way the truth and the life; no man cometh unto the Father but by me." I wonder why he didn't say, "but by baptism," or "but by tongues" or "but by the UP church," or "but by the Oneness Pentecostals," etc. Perhaps, just perhaps, it is because it is because He meant what he said. Salvation is through Christ and Christ alone. Baptism has nothing whatsoever to do with it. Maybe you should pray to Christ and ask His permission seeing he gave that statement in John 14:6. You wouldn't want to disobey Him, would you?

--Go ahead baptize, get wet, scrub and wash; use much soap while your at it; add in some lye and make it very intense--but know and understand that water does not wash away sin!! That is plain superstition.

Evidently Peter thought so. ...and be baptized everyone of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sin... (Acts 2:38)

Tell me; Did John the Baptist baptize on the basis of repentance, or in order that one would receive repentance?

Matthew 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance:
The word "unto" here is the same word "for" in Acts 2:38, the Greek word "eis." As John baptized on the basis of their repentance, so Peter baptized on the basis of (or because of) their remission of sins. The baptism did not cause them to have remission of sins. The baptism was because they already had remission of sins.

Evidently paul was taught that. And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.(Acts 22:16)

You have some problems here don't you. This was Paul's testimony in Acts 22.
When was Paul saved, according to his own testimony? When he saw Christ on the way to Damascus and he submitted to him as Lord (or was he still unsaved then)? Or was he not saved until he was baptized much later on. Paul's own testimony bears out the facts.
Secondly the Greek tense of the verb says quite differently. Check out some different translations and you will see what I mean. A better translation here would be "having called upon the name of the Lord." It was something that he had already done.

Well What else would you call repentance if it wasn't a work? Wo does it? man does it. Man says the words, man changes his mind. It is not God that does the repenting; it is a man. This is a man's work; not Gods. It is work of man--a work that is part of our salvation, just like baptism. Therefore Repentance and Baptism is not a work. It's just required. (Acts 2:38)

You do err not knowing the Scriptures neither the power of God.
Check the Bible on what it says about repentance, then check out a good Bible dictionary about what it says what repentance is. Never does the Bible say that we need to repent of all our sins. Some teach that but it is not a Biblical teaching. If that is what you had in mind, then I would agree with you--it would be works. Also it is impossible for any person to repent of all their sins as it is impossible for a person to bring to memory every sin that they have ever committed in order to repent of them. That is not what repentance is.
Repentance and faith go hand in hand. Neither one is a work. Repentance is a change of heart (mind) from one's sinful way of life, unto God.

I'll even elaborate a little more. Peter, the same man that had the keys to heaven said "save yourselves from this untoward generation.

There's some things such as repent and being baptized that we have to do. They're not works, They are just required.

So! Get saved! That is what is required. There are no good works in salvation. It is a free gift of God, that cannot be worked for (Eph.2:8,9)

Can you put your faith in atoning sacrifice of the work of Christ and nothing else?

Yea I sure can, but can you put your faith on every word spoken by Jesus? For it is written that man shall not live by bread alone, but by EVERY WORD THAT PROCEEDETH OUT OF THE MOUTH OF GOD (mark 4:4)

But sadly you don't put your faith in Christ alone. You don't even believe in the doctrine of justification by faith. You deny it. You believe that baptism saves. You believe a religon saves and not Christ, and that my friend is sad.
DHK

 

[Lorelei]

ONENESS,

We can not read the Bible and then define the words in that Bible any way we want to.

The Bible says the gospel is the death burial and ressurection of Christ.

You say "there is more to it than that" Sorry, you are wrong. Paul even declared that he was sent to preach the gospel and NOT to baptize, this proves that baptism is NOT part of the gospel.

1 Cor 1:17
17 For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel
NIV

You still have not addressed the passage in 1 John where we are told exactly what we were supposed to "obey." You, however, say we must be obedient to the entire Bible in order to be saved, when the Bible tells us that we were not capable of that type of obedience and that is why Christ died for us.

Heb 8:7-8
7 For if there had been nothing wrong with that first covenant, no place would have been sought for another. 8 But God found fault with the people
NIV

The Bible says there is none righteous and yet you claim that your son is.

Rom 3:10

"There is no one righteous, not even one;
NIV

THe Bible says we aren't saved by works so you redefine the works you say we must do to be saved and call them "Requirements" instead. There is no Scripture that calls them "Requirements."

Gal 3:2-5
2 I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by observing the law, or by believing what you heard? 3 Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit, are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort? 4 Have you suffered so much for nothing-if it really was for nothing? 5 Does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you because you observe the law, or because you believe what you heard?
NIV

The Bible says you must "repent" and I have shown how that means to change our mind, but you seem to keep thinking that there is some "work" involved in that. That is because you have been taught that repentance IS a work. That is NOT what the word means!

I showed you already how that word is defined as changing one's mind. THe UPCI, however says on their website that:

Repentance is, first of all, a turning away from all sin.

You are stating your opinions based upon THEIR definition, not the Bible's! Repentance is first of all changing your mind! When you do that you receive the Spirit (Eph 1:13) and the Spirit causes you to turn away from sin!

Use your strongs and look up the word repent. What does it say?

We will really get no where if you want to manipulate the Words of God to suit your doctrine. Until we can agree that the words have the same definition, there is no use in arguing.

Are you going to converse based upon the meaning of the Words as they are used in the Bible or as they are used by the UPCI or whatever church you are associated with?

~Lorelei

 

[ONENESS]

Posted by DHK

On the other hand if you call yourself a Christian, yes, you have to believe in the trinity. If you say you believe the Bible, yes, you must believe in the trinity. If you don't you put yourself outside the mainstream of Christianity and into the realm of a cult.

Maybe I'm in a cult. But the Cult that I am in has truth. The same truth that is taught in your Holy Bible. I'm proud to be in a Cult that Jesus started.

Mark 16:17: And these signs shall follow them that believe, In my name they shall cast out devils, they shall speak with new tongues...

Have you ever spoke in tongues DHK? Have you ever prayed in the Holy Ghost? Is your movement casting out devils? Are any of the other signs following the baptist movement? If you are not speaking in tongues than your not a true believer according to JESUS.

The trinity teaches that there are three persons and yet one God.

I agree 100% thta the trinity teaches that there are three persons and yet one God. BUT thats not what the Bible says.

You use Isa 43:11 to support the Trinity? The Trinity teaches that the First person in the Trinity is seperate from the second person in the Trinity.

...and BESIDE ME THERE IS NO SAVIOR


"Beside" in the Hebrew means 1) apart from, except, without, besides.

You can not seperate ONE GOD. THAT IS FALSE DOCTRINE.

Were the Jews so ignorant that they did not understand the language, and what Jesus was saying? No, they understood exactly what He was saying. He wasn't claiming to be one in purpose. He was claiming to be one in essence, part of the same triune Godhead. Therefore they took up stones to stone him with. Why? They say it themselves: "Because thou, being a man makest thyself God."

Study the the Jews Doctrine. The fundimental basis of what they believe is ONE GOD

Jesus was asked a question by the scribes. They said, which is the first of all commandments? Jesus answered him and said " The first of all the commandments [is], Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord". (Mark 12:29)

This is what they base they're whole existance on concerning God.

He was claiming to be one in essence, part of the same triune Godhead.

That is so far from the truth. They did not pick up stones to kill him b/c he was claiming to be one with God, but for claiming to be "GOD HIMSELF". Who is God himself? Their Father.

[quote"Because thou, being a man makest thyself God."[/quote]

They almost got it right. He was not man making himself God, He was a God who had made himself a man.

They were so close to the truth it's unbelievable. After Jesus told them what the first of all commandments was they told him "Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but he:(Mark 12:32-33). And after that statement from the scribe Jesus said "Thou are not far from the Kingdom of God".

You have got to know who Jesus is before you can inherit the Kingdom of God.

The Holy Spirit is God.

That's right. And the Holy Ghost is Jesus in the Spirit form.

Jeus said in John 14:16 if you love him to keep his commandments and he would pray the Father to send you another comforter, that he may abide with you forever. Who is the other comforter? The Holy Ghost (John 14:26).

If you stop at John 14:16 you might would be able to think there is another person other than God up there, But Jesus gives us the explination if we keep reading.

John 14:18 Jesus said I WILL NOT LEAVE YOU COMFORTLESS, I WILL COME TO YOU.

There it is right there, he's not comeing back as the man Christ Jesus but as a the Holy Ghost. And the Holy Ghost is none other than God in Spiritual essance.

The Greek word for "comfortless" is "orphanos". And that is where we derive the word orphan from. Jesus is not going to leave us fatherless. Jesus is our Father too.

Eph 4:6 One God and Father of all, who [is] above all, and through all, and in you all.

God can't make that any plainer. Jesus is our Father, Jesus is the Son, and Jesus is the Holy Ghost. Three manifestations of the One True God, Not three seperate persons.

1 Timothy 3:16 makes it very clear that God (The Father) was manifest in the Flesh.

So, yes; If you call yourself a Christian, and you say you believe the Bible you must believe in the trinity. Otherwise you can believe anything you want.

We are not required to believe a doctrine which is not in the bible. The Doctrine of the Trinity is a Doctrine derived by the Catholics in 325 ad. You condemn the catholics so hard for their beliefs but choose to embrace a false doctrine which they established.

1 John 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

That verse is not even in the original text. But just to prove a point. Romans 9:11 I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost.

Is Paul and his conscience seperate persons? NO.

Neither are The Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are seperate persons.

Well, I'll finish responding later, I get to go to church now.

God bless

 

[billwald]

"On the other hand if you call yourself a Christian, yes, you have to believe in the trinity."

Yes, by definition.


"If you say you believe the Bible, yes, you must believe in the trinity."

Doesn't logically follow. "Trinity" is a logical construct.

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by billwald:
"On the other hand if you call yourself a Christian, yes, you have to believe in the trinity."

Yes, by definition.


"If you say you believe the Bible, yes, you must believe in the trinity."

Doesn't logically follow. "Trinity" is a logical construct.

The "yes" was in answer to the question, and is not necessary to the sentence grammatically. A few examples will clear that up for you.

If you call yourself a Christian then it is logical to say that you believe in the Bible for the Bible is the foundation of a Christian's belief.

If you say that you believe in the Bible, then you must believe in the deity of Christ,

If you say that you believe in the Bible, then you must believe in the bodily resurrection of Christ.

If you say that you believe in the Bible, then you must believe that the Bible is God's Word.

If you say that you believe in the Bible then you must believe in the trinity.

These are some of the foundational truths that the Bible teaches. If you say that you believe in the Bible, you will believe in these truths that the Bible teaches. If you don't believe in these truths, it is quite evident that you don't believe in the Bible.
DHK

 

[ONENESS]

Laugh?? Are you going to mock God's Holy Word because you don't understand it or don't believe it. That is the cruel thing here, not my words. I am only the messenger. What does Psalm 58:3 say: "They go astray as soon as they be born speaking lies." Do you have a problem with that? Then take it up with God, not me.

Nope, I'm going to mock your silly view of what you think scripture is referring to.

That is the cruel thing here, not my words. I am only the messenger.

You are not a messenger, you are a false prophet. God is One, not three.

Those words are God's words, not mine. He said it, not me. If you refuse to believe God in this matter, then who will you believe?

Take what up with God, that you are takeing this verse way out of context?

"They go astray as soon as they be born speaking lies." Do you have a problem with that?

What lies are spoken at Birth from a child? You're missing the whole concept of what David is saying.

Psalms 51:5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.
--But wait! You dismissed this verse too, didn't you?

Dismiss it? I included it on my original post. This verse in no wise indicates we are born sinners. David said he was conceived in sin, but mentions nothing about being born with sin.

If the doctrine that Mary was immaculately conceived without sin is such heresy, then how much more is your son being conceived without sin heresy?

Mary was a sinner, My Son will be a sinner.

Ok define to me what a sinner is.

Yes it does. To say that it is baptism violates the precepts taught in the rest of the Bible, contrary to what you just stated. One poster already gave you a viable alternative to what the water could mean. There is yet another interpretation. But it certainly does not mean baptism. Christ does not contradict himself, neither the Bible.

Well then you are the one that makes Christ Contradict himself. Baptism is a part of salvation. MARK 16:16 HE THAT BELIEVETH AND IS BAPTIZED SHALL BE SAVED, BUT HE THAT BELIEVETH NOT SHALL BE DAMNED

It does represent baptism and you can't prove otherwise.

The rest of the Bible??
You mean verses like:
"Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved."
"If thou shalt confess with thy mouth and believe in thy heart that Jesus Christ is Lord thou shalt be saved."
"Call upon the name of the Lord and thou shalt be saved"

You mean verses like that.
Do you mean where, Jesus said unto him, "I am the way the truth and the life; no man cometh unto the Father but by me."

Exactly, that's exactly what I mean.

I wonder why he didn't say, "but by baptism," or "but by tongues" or "but by the UP church," or "but by the Oneness Pentecostals," etc.

He did say baptism, Mark 16:16, 1 Peter 3:21, Acts 2:38, John 3:3, Acts

Tell me; Did John the Baptist baptize on the basis of repentance, or in order that one would receive repentance?

Matthew 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance:
The word "unto" here is the same word "for" in Acts 2:38, the Greek word "eis." As John baptized on the basis of their repentance, so Peter baptized on the basis of (or because of) their remission of sins. The baptism did not cause them to have remission of sins. The baptism was because they already had remission of sins.

Thats debatalbe, but I would win that one too. Because Jesus said "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved, but he that believeth not shall be damened"

I would also win b/c Paul was told to "arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins calling on the name of the Lord" (Acts 22:15)

I would win b/c Johns desciples were told to be rebaptized in the Name of Jesus. (Acts 19:1-5)

I would win b/c Jesus said that we have to be born of the water and the spirit. (John 3:5)

I would win b/c Peter commanded the Gentiles to be baptized in the Name of the Lord.

I would win b/c the bible says, The like figure whereunto [even] baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

Check the Bible on what it says about repentance

Check out what the bible says about baptism. And obey what it says about baptism.

Repentance and faith go hand in hand. Neither one is a work. Repentance is a change of heart (mind) from one's sinful way of life, unto God.

Baptism and faith go hand in hand. Neither one is a work. Baptism is part of the new birth, it is where our sins are remitted.

So! Get saved! That is what is required. There are no good works in salvation. It is a free gift of God, that cannot be worked for (Eph.2:8,9)

and baptism is part of salvation. Mark 16:16

But sadly you don't put your faith in Christ alone. You don't even believe in the doctrine of justification by faith. You deny it. You believe that baptism saves. You believe a religon saves and not Christ, and that my friend is sad.
DHK

Not just baptism. Baptism without faith is just getting wet.

Christ does save, but if you don't obey what he says he can't save you.

God Bless

 

[ONENESS]

Lorelie, Its really late and I've got to get in bed, so i will post some replys tommorrow.

Hey listen you were on my heart the other day and I started praying for you.

I was not praying for God to make you believe what I believe so dont think of it like that.

I was just praying for you in General to help you and your family in everyday life. Just asking him to give you strength and to bless your heart.

God bless, talk to you tommorrow.

 

[Briguy]

Brian (oneness) writes:
""You are also right, we cannot prove anything to God. But our works are supposed to be a witness to those who are around us. Not that we have anything to prove to the world, but we do have an obligation to embrace the world, to stand out, to be light , and to be salt.. Our relationship with God should be evident by our works. And the world will see our works long before they see our heart. God looks on the inside, man looks on the outside.""

Hey Hey, we do agree on something. I could not have stated this better myself. Also, thank you for the kind words. You have always posted to me with charity. You and DHK get going at eachother a little rough but to me you have been very kind. "Works" have always been to show God's love and greatness to others. In seeing our works they will give praise to God and give Him their hearts. That is the hope anyway. Brian, the point I want to make is there will be those moments in life when the world beats us up some and our works fade, change, even lay dorment(sp?) for a season, but the heart that God sees is still unchanged. God may get our attention in some way because of what we are doing, but He still sees that same heart as when we were saved. God saw David's heart through murder and adultery, how much easier to see our hearts in a season of furstration, doubt, or pain, when our "lights" dim some. Praise God that He does not throw us to the wolves at those times but He will do things to draw us back to Himself. He knows exactly what to do and what we will do. The works change but the heart remains and that is a huge reason I believe in OSAS. Also, since even you can't say how much obedience is enough to keep us saved I will tell you. 100% is the only way to get saved and stay saved. Now God knowing that we were uncapable of that obedience sent His Son to be the obedience for us. I bet you knew where I was going with that. Works and obedience to God are great but not in the equation of saved or keeping salvation. That said, Scripture which you think may say otherwise must be read in a context of that basic truth. Give me a verse you think supports works and obedience being needed to maintain salvation and I will show you what I mean. Take care, Have a great day!

In Christ,
Brian

 

[DHK]

Oneness,
Please tell me your view on the virgin birth of Christ. Why was it necessary for Christ to be born of a virgin?
DHK

 

[menageriekeeper]

Well I'm going to through back in here.....

Since we are on to discussing the Trinity here, Oneness, how do you explain Matt 3:16-17?

This is one of the clearest examples of the Trinity there is. So, Jesus was the one being baptized, The Holy Spirit decended, and then there was the Voice from heaven. The Voice declares that Jesus is His Son.

Was Jesus talking to himself? Or did He have an out of the body experience where somehow he slipped out of his body and went up a ways so He could then decend back upon himself as a dove?

Lets go on to chapter 4. Who led Jesus out into the desert? Did he lead himself?

 

[tamborine lady]

Oneness,

Manageriekeeper had a goood question. It was:Since we are on to discussing the Trinity here, Oneness, how do you explain Matt 3:16-17?

This is one of the clearest examples of the Trinity there is. So, Jesus was the one being baptized, The Holy Spirit decended, and then there was the Voice from heaven. The Voice declares that Jesus is His Son.

Was Jesus talking to himself? Or did He have an out of the body experience where somehow he slipped out of his body and went up a ways so He could then decend back upon himself as a dove?

Lets go on to chapter 4. Who led Jesus out into the desert? Did he lead himself?

I saw that you had not anwered yet and I was wondering why??

Peace

Tam

 

[MEE]

Originally posted by tamborine lady:

Oneness,

Manageriekeeper had a goood question. It was:Since we are on to discussing the Trinity here, Oneness, how do you explain Matt 3:16-17?

This is one of the clearest examples of the Trinity there is. So, Jesus was the one being baptized, The Holy Spirit decended, and then there was the Voice from heaven. The Voice declares that Jesus is His Son.

Was Jesus talking to himself? Or did He have an out of the body experience where somehow he slipped out of his body and went up a ways so He could then decend back upon himself as a dove?

Lets go on to chapter 4. Who led Jesus out into the desert? Did he lead himself?

I saw that you had not anwered yet and I was wondering why??

Peace

Tam

Tam, ONENESS/Brian is no longer with the BB.

MEE