IF a person graduated from a respectable Bible college or seminary certainly they wold be familiar with the technical wording.
If the candidate gives his doctrinal statement certainly he will understand what they mean.
The most important thing is, Can they explain them to an unlearned community sitting in a pew? That is what concerns me.
His doctrinal statement will confirm his theological soundess. If a man graduates from any school and has a confirmed view on eschatology, I shall have grave doubts about his standing. He has just followed his professor. I want everything in pew language. As I was instructed by one professor, "Jim, keep it simple in presentation. Profoundess is not defined in big words, it is clearly taught simply so a child can understand the essentials."
We are testing a person for their calling to ministry, not asking for a lifetime's experience in two hours.
Cheers,
Jim
Ordination Questions?
Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by TCGreek, Nov 16, 2008.
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Ordination is NOT to glorify ignorance. It is the mark that the man of God is spirit-called to ministry and qualified.
We are to be able to give an answer to any who ask about the hope within us. Basic (and soteriology - redemption, reconciliation, propitiation, atonement, adoption, election, predestination, regeneration, etc ARE "basic" to any believer) Bible doctrine is a MUST.
Would you want a pastor who did not understand the hypostatic union of God/man in Christ Jesus? Would you listen to a man who could not explain the Triune godhead or great doctrinal truths of our salvation?
Maybe you'd be happy with someone spouting a man-centric false Gospel of ripping a text from its context, given 20 sob-stories, and a 1-2-3-pray-after-me 30 minute invitation. I would walk out.
Eldership demands work and sacrifice and study. We have enough churches that are handing out ordination like candy on Oct 31. Or "kawleges" handing out bogus degrees. :( -
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I worry about the man who has all the answers. He usually also makes up the questions.
I am not denying a proper and full education. I am not denying an essential knowledge of theology and Bible.
I am asking for a man who can preach the word of God simply and understandably to the average congregation.
I don't give invitations after a service, thank you very much.
Cheers,
Jim -
Baptist Believer Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
What kind of leeway would a committee in your church allow a candidate for ordination? -
Baptist Believer Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
sag38, if a candidate for ordination has not run across these terms, they have not been involved in serious study of the scripture, at least to the point where they are ready to teach a congregation. These words are used in theology books and articles, and in thoughtful, educated discussion. An ordination candidate who cannot be troubled to learn the basics of theological discussion is someone who is obviously not interested in being a lifelong student of scripture.
As a person who gained the most intensive knowledge of scripture as a college student studying the Bible for 4-6 hours each day over the course of 16 months, mostly late at night, without the aid of any human teacher guiding my studies, I ran into those terms by following up on questions raised and answered as I carefully studied each book of the Bible and established the framework of my theological understanding. By the time I actually began the seven years of my formal theological education, I had already learned the meaning of most of those words through my independent study.
It's not the same thing as demanding that a candidate learn Greek and Hebrew before being ordained! -
Other matters leave some room for disagreement. It is hard to list out what the deal-breakers would be. If a specific issue was mentioned (as it was above), I would state what I think I would do. But in a nutshell, I think a candidate for ordination should be a member of the ordaining church and be in substantial agreement with its doctrinal statement. -
You would make eschatology a test of fellowship???
If we did that we wouldn't have a fellowship of some 550 churches.
Cheers,
Jim -
preachinjesus Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
The issue here isn't intellectual snobbery but that we can fulfill God's call for our lives.
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Think about it this way: Ordination is a church saying that they find a man qualified to teach and minister in that church. Ordination is not really done for the sake of another church. Why would a church ordain someone who thinks that the church's doctrinal position/statement is wrong? They shouldn't.
If a church has no official position on eschatology, then I suppose they might ordain someone who holds to just about any position. But if a church is convinced that pretribulationism is biblical (as they should be), then why would they ordain a man who denies that?
Remember, ordination is different than fellowship. -
Baptist Believer Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
Thanks for letting me pursue that line of questioning. -
My ordination paper was 29 pages. Why so long for a summary of doctrines? Well, i had been seated on many councils prior to my ordination (probably 15-20 from 1963-1973). Saw men with their papers well outline and a bunch of references to support their views. When asked a particular question, they couldn't remember the verse or which of the references to pull up. Deer in the headlights look.
So, the ever-practical Bob simply TYPED OUT IN FULL the supporting verses for each of my points!! So I could not be "stuck" trying to remember a text or reference. It made the church mimeograph run a few more pages, but worth it to MY peace of mind. -
Sometimes I think we get to caught up in the edumacation and not the Word that we should study. I think it is admirable that some folks can translate from the Greek and Hebrew. I have even found it helpful to know the history of the time and what was likely meant when a particular word was used at that point and time. It not only helps me defend my beliefs, but most importantly, it creates a confirmation within me for the way God deals with me thru his word.
Reading the Word of God, along with prayer, meditation, fasting, fellowship with other Christians, worship, exaltation in private and with alike believers, all these do more for my Christian walk than any degree that is to be had.
I think we hold too high those who obtain these degrees without proof that they even understand them. What is even worse is when the person with the degree holds themselves in a higher accord.
I hope we never forget that, in the church, the most high hierarchy are to serve subordinates.
Mark 9:35 And He sat down, called the twelve, and said to them, "If anyone desires to be first, he shall be last of all and servant of all."
When the Holy Spirit is feeding my understanding with the Word of God, no amount of degrees or mans words can give me a greater a understanding of what I am reading and praying about.
A higher formal education has a place in God's will on earth but just like different gifts, the higher formal education is a calling of an individual and not a people.
The higher the calling, the more the servant serves. That is where we learn the real defining characteristics of a Christian seeking the walk with God. -
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It's a manmade standard. -
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So my point is that not that education makes one a better leader (though in some cases it certainly equips gifted people). My point is that leaders are certain types of people. -
On education: Get all you can when you can, but don't let a lack of education hold you back. An education can be formal schooling or it can be self instituted. Both have been successful, and both have made fools of themselves. It all boils down to what we do with learning, even more than how much schooling we have had.
I am 81 and I still take one course each year from somewhere. Bless the computer which has made this possible for me.
One such course even used the computer as a classroom. It was a chatroom. I had trouble keeping up from a typing standpoint, but the young people were very gracious to me and we all shared what we were learning.
Cheers,
Jim
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