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OSAS does not survive the "sola scriptura" test

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by BobRyan, Jan 3, 2018.

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  1. steaver

    steaver Well-Known Member
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    In John 1:11 'they had another choice" because it is in the context of the supernatural work of Christ to draw them... they still chose no. They were not saved. The choice was to receive Christ (born again) and they did not.

    In the case of 1 Cor 9 already born again yet still concerned that he may be castaway from the Gospel. Thought you did not believe works saved?

    In Romans 11 - born again - "you stand only by your faith" -- but "should fear" and persevere 'or else" Where did he say you have been born of God, now make sure you persevere in believing?

    Phil 3 - born again already - yet still striving to "attain to the resurrection of the dead" More works.

    Matthew 18 - only the born-again are "fully forgiven" yet they are being warned about "forgiveness revoked" It is a parable you misunderstand, it reveals the man did not have the new heart.

    Ezek 18 -- only the born-again are "righteous" - yet they are being warned about salvation revoked. Thought you did not believe commandment keeping saved you? No such thing as born-again until Jesus Christ was glorified (Matt 7:39)
     
    #81 steaver, Jan 8, 2018
  2. steaver

    steaver Well-Known Member
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    So you are saying these people who say they did many wonderful works in Jesus' name were faking it?
     
    #82 steaver, Jan 8, 2018
  3. utilyan

    utilyan Well-Known Member
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    Satan wouldn't need to lift a finger since God already guarantees them damned.

    You already start off with a person being dead as can be with nothing of God sustaining them, TOTAL DEPRAVITY.

    Well if its TOTAL there is nothing for Satan to IMPROVE ON. Now if they were PARTIALLY depraved then there is something actually there for Satan to break.
     
    #83 utilyan, Jan 8, 2018
  4. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    There were sincere , but deluded, as not were ever saved, as were trusting in good works to save them!
     
    #84 Yeshua1, Jan 8, 2018
  5. utilyan

    utilyan Well-Known Member
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    The answer is right there in his statement. Works iniquity <-- look that up and learn it.

    Here is another version:

    1 Corinthians 13

    3And if I give all my possessions to feed the poor, and if I surrender my body to be burned, but do not have love, it profits me nothing.


    Evil works is just evil. A GOOD WORK is absolutely GOD GIVEN, its source is HOLY.

    It would be a "wonderful work" if you feed all the poor in the earth, NO LOVE? no pass, that is evil.

    The commandment is LOVE GOD and LOVE NEIGHBOR. Its not "wonderful works" and do a bunch of things.
     
    #85 utilyan, Jan 8, 2018
  6. utilyan

    utilyan Well-Known Member
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    You can save the life and feed all the poor of everyone in the entire world today, if there is no love it doesn't mean anything it just plain evil.
     
    #86 utilyan, Jan 8, 2018
  7. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    God is NOT causing the lost sinner to stay lost, as that is due to God honoring their "free will"
     
    #87 Yeshua1, Jan 8, 2018
  8. steaver

    steaver Well-Known Member
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    There is a detail you are overlooking. Jesus did not say "you never loved", He did say "I never knew you". You have your apples and oranges all mixed up there.
     
    #88 steaver, Jan 8, 2018
  9. steaver

    steaver Well-Known Member
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    "And then will I profess unto them, you never loved: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."

    "And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity".

    "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:"

    No, we cannot change the text to suit our views.
     
    #89 steaver, Jan 8, 2018
  10. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Never had a relationship with Him!
     
    #90 Yeshua1, Jan 8, 2018
  11. utilyan

    utilyan Well-Known Member
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    No what your over looking is worker of iniquity does not love God or neighbor.

    Bottom line you think those who hate God are saved. Name one person who hates God and is saved.
     
    #91 utilyan, Jan 8, 2018
  12. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    If you "persevere" is a problem for OSAS when it is expressed as "you will not be lost if you persevere" -- because lost person DOES persevere in being lost.

    A saved person will only be spared the pain of not losing salvation - if they TOO persevere
     
    #92 BobRyan, Jan 8, 2018
  13. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    John 15 "Every branch IN ME that does not bear fruit is cast away... burned in the fire"

    Rom 11 "you stand only by your FAITH"
    19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in.” 20 Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. 22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

    "otherwise" is pointing to a different future - instead of a "continue in his kindness" future - the one who 'stands by faith" may in the future choose some other course and is being warned not to do that... warned to "persevere" as Paul also says in Romans 2.

    you can not fail to "continue" to persevere in something you never had to start with -- your statement is expressed in the form of a self-contradiction so that it could never happen -- which is a good example of what we do NOT find Paul writing in Romans 11.

    We all knew that right?

    By contrast these are examples of statements that are not self-conflicted

    1. If you DO persevere as a lost person in your unbelief - you will still be lost.
    2. If you do NOT persevere as one 'who stands by faith" and so in the future you choose not to "continue" in his kindness - you will be lost

    OSAS does not survive the test of Romans 11 and this is obvious to unbiased objective Bible students.

    "reworking" or "fixing" the text as with all the texts in my list - is what OSAS "needs" to do ... but in this case there is 'no fix' that makes sense so it is stuck ignoring almost every detail in the text in its efforts to "rewrite it" to fit.

    What false doctrine in the dark ages could not "thrive" if such methods in wrenching the text were legit? We all know that 'nothing' would have been rejected in such a case.
     
    #93 BobRyan, Jan 8, 2018
  14. steaver

    steaver Well-Known Member
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    Are you paying any attention to my answers?
     
    #94 steaver, Jan 9, 2018
  15. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    No, it is not. If you are saved, you will persevere. If you are a tare, you will not persevere.

    Bottom line, no verse or passage suggests those saved under the new covenant, and sealed with the Holy Spirit forever could loose their salvation. Yes, we can loose rewards, engage in unproductive ministry, and enter heaven as one escaping from a fire, but we cannot loose our salvation once God transfers us into the kingdom of His Son. Jesus specifically and repeatedly promised to not cast us out, but rather to raise us up on the last day.
     
    #95 Van, Jan 9, 2018
  16. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    John 15 "Every branch IN ME that does not bear fruit is cast away... burned in the fire"

    Rom 11 "you stand only by your FAITH"
    19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in.” 20 Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. 22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

    "otherwise" is pointing to a different future - instead of a "continue in his kindness" future - the one who 'stands by faith" may in the future choose some other course and is being warned not to do that... warned to "persevere" as Paul also says in Romans 2.

    you can not fail to "continue" to persevere in something you never had to start with -- your statement is expressed in the form of a self-contradiction so that it could never happen -- which is a good example of what we do NOT find Paul writing in Romans 11.

    We all knew that right?

    By contrast these are examples of statements that are not self-conflicted

    1. If you DO persevere as a lost person in your unbelief - you will still be lost.
    2. If you do NOT persevere as one 'who stands by faith" and so in the future you choose not to "continue" in his kindness - you will be lost

    OSAS does not survive the test of Romans 11 and this is obvious to unbiased objective Bible students.

    "reworking" or "fixing" the text as with all the texts in my list - is what OSAS "needs" to do ... but in this case there is 'no fix' that makes sense so it is stuck ignoring almost every detail in the text in its efforts to "rewrite it" to fit.

    What false doctrine in the dark ages could not "thrive" if such methods in wrenching the text were legit? We all know that 'nothing' would have been rejected in such a case.


    For example -

    Rom 11 "you stand only by your FAITH"
    19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in.” 20 Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. 22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

    "otherwise" is pointing to a different future - instead of a "continue in his kindness" future - the one who 'stands by faith" may in the future choose some other course and is being warned not to do that... warned to "persevere" as Paul also says in Romans 2.

    you can not fail to "continue" to persevere in something you never had to start with -- your statement is expressed in the form of a self-contradiction so that it could never happen -- which is a good example of what we do NOT find Paul writing in Romans 11.

    You said "If you are a tare, you will not persevere." -- you will not persevere "in what"??? (That is what I keep asking).

    Do you really think the tares do not 'persevere in being lost'??? really? And then do you claim to failure to persevere in being lost - will end up in getting them to be lost??

    OR are you admitting that they "do not persevere in staying saved"???
     
    #96 BobRyan, Jan 9, 2018
    Last edited: Jan 9, 2018
  17. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    I am sorry, if you are saved you will persevere in your salvation, but if you were never saved, you will not persevere in your salvation because you were never saved.

    1) What verse did you cite which says persevere?

    2) John 15 indicates those actually saved produce fruit, so those who do not produce fruit were never saved. This chapter supports OSAS.

    3) I already addressed Romans 11
    NASB said:
    24 For if you were cut off from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these who are the natural branches be grafted into their own olive tree?​
    Here we have the corporately chosen people of Israel (Jews) being hardened to facilitate the spread of the gospel to the Gentiles (non-Jews). Were the Jews that were cut off believers? Nope, they were non-believers, and therefore not true Israel. So no loss of salvation under the New Covenant is being taught.
     
    #97 Van, Jan 9, 2018
  18. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Fir it is GOF who works and wills in us, and he will keep all who are saved, or else Jesus and Jude both lied to us!
     
    #98 Yeshua1, Jan 9, 2018
  19. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    How does one "fail to persevere in something they never had to start with"?? The bible puts OSAS in a box of having to make self-conflicted statements to survive sola-scriptura testing.

    The man that fails to persevere in working faithfully at his job - may be fired.

    The man who never worked at that job at all - - may not be fired from that job and need not fear that he will be fired from that job.

    This is irrefutable
     
    #99 BobRyan, Jan 9, 2018
  20. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Paul was NOT addressing OSAS in Romans 11, but was addressing how saved gentiles stand on same fooring now in Christ as saved Jews are!
     
    #100 Yeshua1, Jan 9, 2018
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