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Featured Perseverance of the elect, called to be saints

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by Scott Downey, Nov 21, 2020 at 4:49 AM.

  1. Scott Downey

    Scott Downey Well-Known Member

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    The elect are those who persevere to the end in belief and follow Christ as God come in the flesh. People do fall away in unbelief, they once believed and don't anymore, so they were not elect even though at the time you would have thought they were elect. They fall away and follow doctrines of demons.

    If you live as a christian most of your life, but at the end of your life you depart from Christ and blaspheme His name saying He was just a common man and not God come in the flesh, then you were never elect (chosen by God, granted to come to Christ by the Father) ever.

    If Unbelief is a sign that you are not a partaker of Christ, then belief is a sign you are in Christ.
    None of this is evidence you can lose your salvation, just evidence that some people are apostates as from the beginning Christ knew those who would betray Him, which is why He said,

    John 6.
    64 But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him.

    65 And He said, “Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.”

    So we see that betrayers have not been granted by the Father to be saved, which is why they betrayed Christ as they were not chosen (elected)

    Being granted to come to Christ comes first, without this you either won't believe or you will betray Christ.

    Hebrews 3
    Therefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our confession, Christ Jesus, 2 who was faithful to Him who appointed Him, as Moses also was faithful in all His house. 3 For this One has been counted worthy of more glory than Moses, inasmuch as He who built the house has more honor than the house. 4 For every house is built by someone, but He who built all things is God. 5 And Moses indeed was faithful in all His house as a servant, for a testimony of those things which would be spoken afterward,

    6 but Christ as a Son over His own house, whose house we are if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm to the end.

    12 Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; 13 but exhort one another daily, while it is called “Today,” lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.

    14 For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end, 15 while it is said:

    “Today, if you will hear His voice,
    Do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion.”

    16 For who, having heard, rebelled? Indeed, was it not all who came out of Egypt, led by Moses? 17 Now with whom was He angry forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose corpses fell in the wilderness?

    18 And to whom did He swear that they would not enter His rest, but to those who did not obey?
    19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.
     
    #1 Scott Downey, Nov 21, 2020 at 4:49 AM
    Last edited: Nov 21, 2020 at 4:56 AM
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  2. Barry Johnson

    Barry Johnson Well-Known Member

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    So you cannot know your ' Elect ' until the end ?
     
  3. Scott Downey

    Scott Downey Well-Known Member

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    Ask that of the people who departed from Christ and no longer believe in Him. I do know of some apostate people like that. I hope they come around back to the truth before they die and believe in Christ.

    1 John 2 really does happen today, not just in the days of Apostle John, v19- 20 though tells us why we see this happen.
    v19 are those the God has not granted to come to Christ, which is why they depart from Christ, actually this is the same as what Jesus says in John 6

    18 Little children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that the Antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come, by which we know that it is the last hour. 19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.

    20 But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and you know all things. 21 I have not written to you because you do not know the truth, but because you know it, and that no lie is of the truth.

    22 Who is a liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist who denies the Father and the Son. 23 Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father either; he who acknowledges the Son has the Father also.
     
    #3 Scott Downey, Nov 22, 2020 at 4:14 AM
    Last edited: Nov 22, 2020 at 4:20 AM
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  4. Barry Johnson

    Barry Johnson Well-Known Member

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    So YOU cannot know your ' Elect ' until the end ?
     
  5. Scott Downey

    Scott Downey Well-Known Member

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    I cant speak for anyone else, but this applies for me certainly.

    Romans 8:15-17
    New King James Version
    15 For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out, “Abba,[a] Father.”

    16 The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, 17 and if children, then heirs—heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him, that we may also be glorified together.

    You know people who endure to the end through various fiery trials prove their faith genuine, that is the scripture. This is just something you know deep inside yourself, if you don't feel that, I cant explain it. Pity for anyone who does not know God. Like Paul said some have no knowledge of God, to their shame.
     
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  6. Scott Downey

    Scott Downey Well-Known Member

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    1 Corinthians 2 verse 10, BUT God has revealed them to 'us' by His Spirit.
    This is a deep knowing, just like John 10 says

    14 I am the good shepherd; and I know My sheep, and am known by My own. 15 As the Father knows Me, even so I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep.

    9 But as it is written:

    “Eye has not seen, nor ear heard,
    Nor have entered into the heart of man
    The things which God has prepared for those who love Him.”

    10 But God has revealed them to us through His Spirit. For the Spirit searches all things, yes, the deep things of God. 11 For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God. 12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God.

    13 These things we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
     
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  7. Barry Johnson

    Barry Johnson Well-Known Member

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    Don't those that eventually fall away have a ' inner witness ' and feel like they are being led by their shepherd?
     
  8. Barry Johnson

    Barry Johnson Well-Known Member

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    Could you be one of those John Calvin spoke of as having a ' false faith ' ?
     
  9. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Perseverance does not provide salvation, it proves salvation. Why do those who have "come to Me" persevere? In this context, come to Me refers to being placed into Christ, thus given to Christ. And when placed into Christ, the individual is born anew, a new creation, created for good works. But why can't such an individual, decide he or she does not love Jesus? Because his or her faith is protected by the power of God. Therefore, once saved, always saved.
     
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  10. Barry Johnson

    Barry Johnson Well-Known Member

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    This is the essence of Lordship salvation . Your perseverance ( works ) becomes the necessary evidence of election . Then your works fade . Thus casting doubt if you really are ' chosen ' .
     
  11. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Please do not misrepresent my view, it is based on scripture, not the speculation of men.

    Perseverance does not provide salvation, it proves salvation. Why do those who have "come to Me" persevere? In this context, come to Me refers to being placed into Christ, thus given to Christ. And when placed into Christ, the individual is born anew, a new creation, created for good works. But why can't such an individual, decide he or she does not love Jesus? Because his or her faith is protected by the power of God. Therefore, once saved, always saved.
     
  12. Scott Downey

    Scott Downey Well-Known Member

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    Yes, KEPT by the power of God, notice how Peter describes this. v5, says God KEEPS His people by His power through faith. This is intertwined, their faith and God's power, without God's power, we would not have faith. Because we have faith, we are Kept by His power for salvation. Romans 12:3 tells us our faith is God's gift, it has been dealt to us in varying amounts.

    v2 is also revealing, we are first 'elect' according to foreknowledge, this is God foreknowing His people (His very own elect) , so those whom He foreknew as his own, He predestined, for what? To be made holy to the LORD, sanctified so then acceptable in the Beloved, Obedience to the gospel message (believe in Christ the SON) , and be sprinkled with His blood, (to have the forgiveness of their sin)

    1 Peter 1
    New King James Version


    Greeting to the Elect Pilgrims
    1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ,

    To the pilgrims of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,
    2 elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ:

    Grace to you and peace be multiplied.

    A Heavenly Inheritance
    3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 to an inheritance incorruptible and undefiled and that does not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, 5 who are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

    6 In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while, if need be, you have been grieved by various trials, 7 that the genuineness of your faith, being much more precious than gold that perishes, though it is tested by fire, may be found to praise, honor, and glory at the revelation of Jesus Christ, 8 whom having not seen you love. Though now you do not see Him, yet believing, you rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory, 9 receiving the end of your faith—the salvation of your souls.
     
    #12 Scott Downey, Nov 22, 2020 at 10:33 AM
    Last edited: Nov 22, 2020 at 10:39 AM
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  13. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    I agree with much of what Scott posted in post #12.

    However, he indicated our faith is not ours, but instilled by irresistible grace, the gift of faith. This of course is unbiblical.

    He cited Romans 12:3, indicating the verse said our faith is God's gift. But let us take a look at the actual verse:
    Romans 12:3
    For through the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think more highly of himself than he ought to think; but to think so as to have sound judgment, as God has allotted to each a measure of faith.

    So once again we have an ambiguous phrase said to mean Calvinist doctrine. But contextually, our placement and part in Christ's ministry does not mean we are more important than say the guy who cleans the bathroom or folds the bulletin. We are to function together, and we all need to strive to do our job, and that includes recognizing the person who does all she is able, as every bit the key to effective ministry, as the windbag who pounds the pulpit. (And when that windbag walks into your presence, stand up, for he is worthy of double honor.)
     
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  14. Scott Downey

    Scott Downey Well-Known Member

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    Without faith it is impossible to please God.
    And you are 'in the flesh' if the Spirit of God is not inside of you.
    The carnal mind (flesh) is enmity with God
    Romans 8 here also proves faith is a gift, but even though given to us it is become OUR faith we possess it.
    This is part of why we must be born again before we confess our faith in Christ.
    The question is, can the carnal mind have faith in Christ? How could it because of the enmity.

    enmity defined here

    NOUN
    the state or feeling of being actively opposed or hostile to someone or something.

    Such a 'carnal' mind can never place its trust in Christ.

    If you say an unsaved man can be spiritually minded, scripture says they have LIFE and PEACE.
    But the unsaved heart of a man scripture says is desperately wicked. And scripture says there is NO PEACE for the wicked. So then this is impossible.

    5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit.
    6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
    7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be.
    8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

    9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His
     
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  15. Barry Johnson

    Barry Johnson Well-Known Member

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    Once you accept the reformed view of the T as described by Calvinism there's no going back. It s no impossible to view the scriptures in a proper light anymore . It took me about a year to deprogramme .
     
  16. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    Besides unbelief what other sins are not covered by Christ's atonement?
     
  17. Barry Johnson

    Barry Johnson Well-Known Member

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    Why is unbelief not covered? We were all in unbelief before we believed .
     
  18. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    Besides being rhetorical, the question is also sarcastic. I believe the OP to be an affront to the faithfulness of God along with being shallow and hasty with the word of God.

    .....and we never ever need worry about that old sin of unbelief again, right? Never gonna happen, a real, sincere, bona fide, true, genuine, authentic, Christian could never fall into unbelief, right?
     
  19. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Without faith it is impossible... is non-germane. We can please God with our faith.
    You are Men of flesh if the Spirit of God is not inside you. However a born anew person can set their mind in the flesh, and a lost person can set their mind on things of the Spirit, just not spiritual meat (solid food).
    While our mind is in the flesh, we are an enemy of God.
    Since we are saved "through" or by reason of faith, our faith precedes our election for salvation.
    Of course the unsaved can trust in Christ, otherwise our salvation would not be "through faith."
     
  20. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    No one is....placed....into Christ, a falsehood.
     
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