What I posted didn't say Calvin did it, it said he was tortured and executed for lampooning Calvin. This is the sort of thing that happened in Geneva at Calvin's peak influence.
I'm not sure articles from Gospelcom could be called unbiased when reporting on some of the horrors of 16th century Geneva.
As for sources being unbiased (something like this came up on the Al Franken thread in politics), the facts are the facts even if you don't like the reporter.
Persuading non-Calvinists
Discussion in 'History Forum' started by Ignazio_er, Dec 30, 2003.
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I think I mentioned earlier that I had read in an article once that only one person, the previously mentioned Servetus was executed while Calvin was in Geneva. I didn't necessarily buy that, either, but I had no way to check that claim out. -
Seems every branch has its skeletons. Which makes finger pointing an ineffective argument. -
Huizinga, Johan (P), Erasmus and the Age of Reformation, tr. F. Hopman, New York: Harper & Bros., 1957 (orig. 1924).
and
Durant, Will (S), The Reformation, (volume 6 of 10-volume The Story of Civilization, 1967), New York: Simon & Schuster, 1957.
as references, and I think the web page even gives page numbers. The passages from these legitimate and respected historians are not in the least vitriolic. I'm not sure what kind of documentation you want but I think these are up to the generally accepted standards on this board.
I posted the Ingersoll just because it was something I could find on the internet without much effort and, as you say, he definitely has an axe to grind and would probably take any stick to be the Christian government horse.
As for your remark that I'm finger pointing, I really don't know what you mean. Bringig up historical facts is appropriate for this forum. Bringing up historical facts about Calvin, Calvinists, or Calvin's Geneva is not necessarily the same thing as arguing against the truth of Calvinism. I think Calvinists should be unafraid to confort the historical realities, just like Catholics should. You don't really think we should deal with all criticism and investigation of Calvinists by dismissing the investigators as mere finger-pointers, do you?
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"They are certainly aware of the pacifying influence Menno Simons had."
Personally I rate Simons higher than Luther, Calvin and Zwingli, but I'm both Dutch and a baptist so that's not surprising.
"Huizinga, Johan (P), Erasmus and the Age of Reformation, tr. F. Hopman, New York: Harper & Bros., 1957 (orig. 1924). "
In a country with no shortage when it comes to good historians, Johan Huizinga is still considered the greatest Dutch historian, I'd say he is usually reliable. -
Best way to persuade someone about "calvinism" is to focus on the points of doctrine, not on the good/bad/ugly of Calvin the man or Geneva the government.
These are 100% UNRELATED to the doctrinal truth of the basics points. You can't defend ANY man - either he or his followers will always go to some extreme or abuse and if the focus is on the man, then the issues will be clouded over.
Focus on the points. Each are biblical and therefore defensible. -
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"You can't defend ANY man - either he or his followers will always go to some extreme or abuse and if the focus is on the man, then the issues will be clouded over."
Absolutely true, there are so many versions of extreme Calvinism crawling around the Dutch Bible belt that there is enough ammunition there to sully the names of half a dozen great reformers. That doesn't mean that Jean Calvin's views were wrong.
Calvin's views are ofcourse a horrendous treacherous heresy, a blight that must be etc.
I'm only saying this last bit to annoy dr. Bob ofcourse. :D
"Then I shall accept the account as recorded by him. I still question the standard of scholarship of the web page he is quoted on."
The Huizinga quote looks good, unless it was forged from whole cloth. But yes I would be very cautious with the information on that page.
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