If you check what he wrote, this was one of three hypothetical situations that he listed.
Priest and Wine
Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by steaver, Jul 26, 2010.
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FriendofSpurgeon Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
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Thinkingstuff came right out and used the word:
Here is what most think that a legalist is:
On a sliding scale of 0 to 10, 0 is grace or liberty and 10 is legalism. 0 is complete freedom to do what one wants under the flag of grace. 10 is what seems like following rules and laws that we call legalism. This has nothing to do with legalism.
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0--------------------------------------------------10
Carnality------------------------------------------Holiness
Your definition of legalism is really a matter of holiness. Christians today (many of them) want the liberty to live as close to the world as possible. They want to live at #1. When they see people living at #9 or if possible #10, they call them legalists, because what they observe as rules those Christians have decided that in order to live as closely as possible to Christ there are many things in their lives that they must sacrifice: Crude language, intoxicating beverages, immodest clothing, music that is not glorifying to the Lord, etc. They ask themselves: Is this what Christ would have me to do? Am I being filled with the Holy Spirit in doing so? Do I look different than the world or the same as the world in carrying out this activity. It is not a matter of being legalistic. It is a matter of holiness. I want #10; I want to live as close to the cross of Christ as possible.
Now here is what the Bible says that legalism is.
Legalism is anything that adds to salvation.
The Judaizers were legalists? Why? Because they were demanding that circumcision and keeping of the law be required in order for Gentiles to be saved. That is what a legalist is. Adisciplined learner was a legalist inasmuch as he was adding to salvation baptism. The Church of Christ does the same thing, and many of them add many other rules, which, if you break you will lose your salvation. Legalism has only to do with salvation.
When someone makes a decision and believes that that decision will draw them closer to the Lord, don't call them legalist. Look at your own life instead.
Here is the Scripture you need to look at.
Romans 5:20-21 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:
21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.
Romans 6:1-2 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
Many thought they had this great liberty under grace. More grace; more liberty. Paul put that idea to rest immediately. Shall we sin that grace may abound? God forbid!
Why? We are dead to sin. We must not live in sin any longer. Grace does not give one the license to sin--whether it be smoking, drinking, being clothed immodestly, etc. What will it take to live holy lives as opposed to carnal lives. Listen to the harsh words the Lord has against carnality:
James 4:4 Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.
--He is not speaking of physical adultery, but spiritual adultery. It is spiritual adultery to be friends with the world--to go to that scale and desire #1 instead of #9 or 10. Being the friend of the world is as bad as being the enemy of God. -
FriendofSpurgeon Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
If I know someone has an issue with drinking or they have had an addiction, I don't drink around them. It's simple courtesy, isn't it? If my mom's IFB pastor visited my house, I wouldn't offer him a beer either. Simple courtesy, since I know his stance on the issue. -
2) I have no problem with dancing or mixed bathing and As far as dress goes - dress modestly and let each person decide for themselves before the Lord what that is. Except for children, they need to be regulated by their parents.
So where does that put me? You need to broaden the list. -
Rom 8:1ΒΆ[There is] therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Jhn 8:7So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.
A Christian should never cast condemnation upon another Christian for any sin they see them committing. There is no condemnation for those who are born of God. This does not mean that we should not lovingly tell our brothers and sisters in Christ if we see them flirting with sin.
Jam 5:20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.
Condemnation - never. Admonishment - always.
I pray you fair well brother! God BLess! -
Have you ever tried just seeking the Holy Spirit when you feel stressed. Pray and praise Jesus for all His tender mercies. I believe He will bless you for taking a stand against this world's favorite drug of choice. -
Absolutely spot on! -
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You cannot compare being clothed immodestly (which Scripture never has anything positive to say about) with moderate drinking of alcohol (which Scripture DOES have something positive to say about). They are apples and oranges. -
FriendofSpurgeon Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
Out of courtesy, if I knew someone who did have an addiction (which I don't), of course I would not drink in front of them. Again, it's simple courtesy.
By the way, I doubt that my mom's IFB pastor would come to my house -- he lives 12 hours away. I was just using that an example. -
You see, even those who say "who cares" most often demonstrate by their actions that they do care. Which is a good thing btw.
For everyone here who has contributed to this discussion and has defended the consumption of alcoholic beverages as quite ok with God, even commanded by God, it is good to see that each one of you by your own admitted actions towards others understand the problems alcohol has caused this world.
I drank for ten years. Probably drunk at least twice a week on average. Yet I have never craved it or become addicted to it in any way. I drank for the high and the fellowship with other like minded people. I know many other people who were not so blessed, they became addicted and could not stop.
No one starts drinking alcohol with the attitude "I want to be addicted to this". No, we all think ourselves "more controled" than that. So why do people start?
Is there anyone here who drinks alcohol now or has in the past and did not do so before legal age? -
How about we all give our testimony as to what age and why we began to drink alcohol?
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if you want to hear a great teaching on the subject...
http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?SID=12203124227
i have listened to it more than once b/c i was a drunkard in college and after...
i wanted to know the truth. it does not matter what the baptists teach on wine... it only matters what the Bible teaches... this is a good teaching.
wine is a gift from God IF not abused. should we do it if we may stumble? no.. or help a brother stumble? no... of course not...
(some) baptists get a little carried away with this issue. -
Has anyone ever stopped to consider that what Paul was trying to say in Romans 14 was not that Christians could drink alcohol, but rather that those who were not Christian would be judging Christians because they drank something that was not alcoholic?
Everyone wants to say it means we can drink whatever we want and not worry about being judged by others. But I have read on police blotters that just one can, while it does not make one drunk enough to constitute one being officially drunk by state definition, inhibitions are reduced and reactions are slower.
Can that truly be good? -
Matt Black Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
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I believe that Scriptures teach total abstinence from alcohol. I do not believe that the Lord Jesus Christ turned the water into alcoholic wine or drank it...but this is what I hear from alot of professing Christians.
That's my two cents!
Good thread, Steaver! -
Matt Black Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
My grandmother always served wine with a meal and I partook from an early age (about 7 onwards, albeit in a very small glass initially); even today I consider it vulgar to not serve wine with a meal!
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Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
Matt...I agree & it could be a cultural thing. My relatives from Italy & France always have wine with their meals. My wifes German relatives were brewmasters in Germany and subsequently beer is always served with meals & afterwards.
Cheers -
I tasted my first alcohol by dipping my finger in my parent's beverage. I loved the taste of scotch!! :) I didn't have my own drink until I was over 18 and I think it wasn't even until I was 19 when I actually did get a drink. I know I had a glass of champagne at my wedding and hubby and I shared a VERY nice bottle of wine in Bermuda on our honeymoon thanks to my cousin who worked for a large insurance firm there who decided to treat us to a lovely dinner at the most exclusive restaurant there.
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Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
.....and always remember to drink upstream from the herd. Little farm humor ...:laugh:
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