Quick baptisms

[Tom Butler]

I don't think supposed new converts should be able to make a public confession of faith until they can write an 1800 page thesis on soteriology and be able to defend it. Then we should disciple them for 14 years before baptizing them. Church membership is a separate thing from baptism. What is easy believism?

You're much too tough. 50 pages would be plenty

And 2 years probation is adequate.

Yes, baptism and church membership are two different things. But at my church, without it you will not be admitted to membership and will not be permitted to take the Lord's Supper.

Easy believism might be described as salvation by works, making a decision for Christ, praying the prayer--stuff like that.

 

[gb93433]

Ever wonder why the Cults are on the rise and churches (the ones who aren't in the entertainment business) in the decline.

It is because the Christian churches are disobedient in not making disciples,

 

[Tom Butler]

There really needs to be follow-up, visiting, classes for new Christians, etc. The dip them and drop them program that so many Baptist churches and especially evangelists have is a really poor model.

The following story illustrates the point I want to make here:

A fellow deacon and I visited a couple who was once quite active, now a long-time dropout. We let them know they were missed, and how much we would like to see them come back. No positive response.

I finally got exasperated. "Let me ask you something. You two claim to be believers. We do we have to come here and beg you to come to church? Why shouldn't it be that we'd have to lock the church door to keep you out? And why wouldn't we have to beat you off with a stick to keep you away?"

And that's my point. Why is it that we assume believers won't want to fellowship with other believers, won't want to immerse themselves in God's word, won't want to hear the gospel preached, unless they are told so, visited, followed up on and begged to come. Why do believers have to be begged?

Don't take this wrong. Babes in Christ need discipling, teaching, and tender loving care. But not begging.

 

[Plain Old Bill]

Let's see, making a decision for Christ:
1. I hear the Gospel
2. I believe the message
3. 2. I act on that belief by making a decision to commit my life to the Lord Jesus Christ.
4. I make a public profession of faith.

Is that easy believeism?

 

[gb93433]

Don't take this wrong. Babes in Christ need discipling, teaching, and tender loving care. But not begging.

The biggest problem is that too often the leaders in churches today are babes in Christ. They have never made disciples and nobody is showing them how. Intellectual ministry has replaced practical ministry. Programs have replaced personal contact. Too many are about nickels and noses so thery can build their next building oir pay another salary ratrher than simply reacing peopel and making disciples. Too many are inviting people to programs and campaigns rather than doing the real task and assuming the responsibility of ministry.

People want to belong to a church where they can give and be given to.

There are loads of pastors and congregation out there who have bought into the idea of programs, and effortless evangelism and discipleship. The fact is that those with the least money are winning the most numbers. People will leave program churches for churches that really care and love the people.

Recently I asked a leader in a church, "What do you think would happen if all of the pastors would leave their churches and all of the churches in America were pastorless?" He smiled and told me that probably the people would start doing more.

 

[Tom Butler]

Let's see, making a decision for Christ:
1. I hear the Gospel
2. I believe the message
3. 2. I act on that belief by making a decision to commit my life to the Lord Jesus Christ.
4. I make a public profession of faith.

Is that easy believeism?

I wouldn't ever question your salvation. I'm mainly talking about how the gospel is presented to a lost person. Sometimes it's presented as "all you have to do is______."

I think we forget that the Holy Spirit must open hearts and understanding (I Cor 2:14). We believe the gospel and it now makes sense to us. But the gospel message is not easy to take. In fact, when you think about it, telling somebody about a guy who claims to be God, who died and came back to life, and has the power to grant you entrance into heaven, is a crazy notion. I can hear somebody responding with "yeah, right." What makes more sense is, say these words and you're saved. Do some good works and you can get into heaven.

Lydia knew about God (Acts 15) but the gospel made sense to her only after the Lord opened her heart.

 

[rlvaughn]

Biblical command, precept, and example all favor baptism following profession of faith as soon as possible.

The biblical accounts possess a surprising consistency where the give this information -- believers professed Christ and were then baptized, without lengthy delays (Acts 2:41; 2:47; 8:12,36,37; 10:44-48; 16:14,15, 31-33; 18:8; 19:1-7). Of what I can on the case of Paul seems to be a possible exception. But notice that on the road to Damascus there was evidently none who could baptize him and when the Lord sent Ananias to tell him what to do, he was immediately baptized (Acts 9:5,9,18).

Baptism is a command of God to the convert (e.g. Acts 2:38; 10:48) and to the church (Matt. 28:18-20). Should obeying God be delayed? Baptism is the first act of obedience required by God of the believer. Obedience should not be delayed.

I understand some of the reasons raised in favor of delaying baptism. I also object to the pseudo-evangelistic methods that are often associated with "quick" baptisms. But it seems to me that we should work on correcting those problems rather than rejecting a consistent New Testament example that correlates well with New Testament command and precept.

 

[ray Marshall]

I wouldn't ever question your salvation. I'm mainly talking about how the gospel is presented to a lost person. Sometimes it's presented as "all you have to do is______."

I think we forget that the Holy Spirit must open hearts and understanding (I Cor 2:14). We believe the gospel and it now makes sense to us. But the gospel message is not easy to take. In fact, when you think about it, telling somebody about a guy who claims to be God, who died and came back to life, and has the power to grant you entrance into heaven, is a crazy notion. I can hear somebody responding with "yeah, right." What makes more sense is, say these words and you're saved. Do some good works and you can get into heaven.

Lydia knew about God (Acts 15) but the gospel made sense to her only after the Lord opened her heart.

Yeah' and to think that you tell them about a someone that created the whole world out of nothing. All the heavenly bodys, creatures, insects, and everything else that exist is more than a natural man can take in.

 

[gb93433]

I wouldn't ever question your salvation. I'm mainly talking about how the gospel is presented to a lost person. Sometimes it's presented as "all you have to do is______."

Isn't a person saved by belief in Jesus Christ? Sounds quite simple to me while so many try to make it more than it really is and add onto what is required.

Acts 16:30, 31, "...Sirs, what must I do to be saved?" They said, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved,..."

 

[Tom Butler]

Isn't a person saved by belief in Jesus Christ? Sounds quite simple to me while so many try to make it more than it really is and add onto what is required.

Acts 16:30, 31, "...Sirs, what must I do to be saved?" They said, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved,..."

Exactly right. I read a story about a missionary who was preaching to a group of natives. Right in the middle of his message, a man stood up and said, "I've heard enough. I believe!"

Can you visualize the missionary saying, "Wait a minute, I haven't given the invitation yet. You haven't walked the aisle yet. You still haven't prayed to receive Jesus in your heart." Well, that's silly, one might say. Yet isn't that what the pitch is, sometimes? Walk the aisle. Invite Jesus into your heart. Pray to receive Jesus. Ask him to save you.

It seems as if we can't bring ourselves to simply say, God commands you to repent and trust him for your salvation. Will you?" Somehow, we can't bring ourselves to believe that "I believe" is quite enough.

Present company excepted, of course.

 

[Jim1999]

Not everyone realizes Christ in salvation the same way. Some have even come to Christ in the still and quiet of their own bedroom never having entered a church. Fact. I have witnessed it.

I was taught all my life and believed all I heard about Jesus, salvation and all. It was at my Confirmation in the Church of England when I actually realized Christ as my personal Saviour. There was no minister or other person present. There was no rolling on the floor or shouting great bursts of hallelujah! It was a quiet time on my knees before God. I just know at that moment Christ entered my life in a new way.

On baptism; we can't compare the timing of baptism in New Testament times and now in modern society. We can't rush it. Should it take 6 months or 1 year is irrelevant. That one truly believes in Christ as Saviour and the order to be baptized as a witness to that fact that counts.

In New Testament it could cost one's life just to become a Christian let alone be baptized. In modernity, there is no such threat, and it would be so easy just to satisfy the girlfriend, parents or even a pastor to be baptized.

I never pressured anyone and waited for them to ask me about baptism. Then I felt they were ready.

Cheers,

Jim

 

[Tom Butler]

In New Testament it could cost one's life just to become a Christian let alone be baptized. In modernity, there is no such threat, and it would be so easy just to satisfy the girlfriend, parents or even a pastor to be baptized.

Jim, this part of your post caught my attention. Dr. Joseph Tsan, the long-time patriarch of Romanian Baptists said that when Romania was under Communism, if someone came and wanted to confess Christ as Lord, he tried to talk them out of it.

Talk them out of it? Yep, he said we wanted him to understand the implications. So we told him the downside. Do you understand that when it becomes known that you have embraced Christianity, it could get you killed, beaten, thrown in jail? Do you understand that it could cost you your job, your ability to earn a living, your family?

Dr. Tsan said if the man still wanted to go public, they figured his conversion was real, and they would baptize him.

That was just 20 years ago.

Romanian Baptists, BTW, will baptize a convert fairly soon, but will place him on two years probation. He will be discipled, but will have no leadership positions. The thinking is, if he's still around after two years, his public profession was probably valid. A Romanian pastor told me, "we don't play church."

 

[annsni]

In New Testament it could cost one's life just to become a Christian let alone be baptized. In modernity, there is no such threat, and it would be so easy just to satisfy the girlfriend, parents or even a pastor to be baptized.

Yep - That's what I said (I think) earlier in the thread. If they were willing to be baptized, they were almost certainly saved because of the cost of that declaration. Today people may do it to fit in or please someone. I think it's better to have a time between salvation and baptism today. Atleast enough time for them to be discipled a bit and allow them to truly understand what's going on.

 

[Salty]

Many years ago at our (English-speaking) church in Germany (off post military), a member had here sister visit for a couple of weeks. At church the first week, the sister accepted the Lord as Saviour. After the invitation was over, the Pastor asked (in front of the congregation -about 20 or so) and asked if she wanted to be baptized. I could only imagine that her thinking was "Sounds like I am supposed to say yes". Naturally, her answer was yes. Well, the next Sunday she was baptized,(and became a member of the church (?). The following day she went back home - which was about 300 KM's away.
Did our church baptize her too quick - I think so.

 

[Jim1999]

The Anglican Church isn't so bad, it has classes of weeks durations prior to confirmation. In some Baptist Churches a few classes are held after baptism, and some never get a word outside of sermons on Sunday.

Cheers,

Jim

 

[Salty]

... In some Baptist Churches a few classes are held after baptism, and some never get a word outside of sermons on Sunday.

Cheers,
Jim

So very true raying: :tear: my good friend

 

[Plain Old Bill]

I know you were not questioning my salvation, no offence taken.
I have done a lot of personal evangelizing over the last 30 years. I believe in a simple gospel message. I make sure that whoever I am witnessing to understands just exactly who Jesus Christ is, The price He paid for our sins, our standing before Him, and the remedy. I take a man at his word when he tells me he believes and accepts Christ as his Saviour. When we pray it is to thank God for an accomplished fact. How the details work out after that depend on each individual situation. I never recommend a charismatic or KJO church.
The command is to go out and preach the gospel to every creature and that is what I do to the best of my ability.

To address another thought that has cropped up about salvation being cheap and easy or treated that way, only in free countries. Read Voice of the Martyrs Christians are being persecuted and dying every day for their belief in our Lord. I am so blessed to have men and women of God come to my web site from Muslim and communist countries and use the resources as well as sign up for Bible training at their peril. It's not easy for everybody my brothers.

 

[gb93433]

Not everyone realizes Christ in salvation the same way. Some have even come to Christ in the still and quiet of their own bedroom never having entered a church. Fact. I have witnessed it.

I have never met two people who have come to Christ in exactly the same way and with the same struggles but they have come to Christ. For me it was more of an intellectual struggle than anything else.

On baptism; we can't compare the timing of baptism in New Testament times and now in modern society. We can't rush it. Should it take 6 months or 1 year is irrelevant. That one truly believes in Christ as Saviour and the order to be baptized as a witness to that fact that counts.

While I tend to agree with you I also disagree with you. I believe that people must know about what they face once they decide to follow Christ. So much of what happens following their decision depends on what they knew preceding their decision and the foundation of their decision.

I never pressured anyone and waited for them to ask me about baptism.

I believe that scripture teaches the same thing.

 

[DHK]

Our society is different. We don't know what it is like to be persecuted for our faith. Think what it was like before Saul was saved. He persecuted the church with a zeal unknown to churches today. And afterward the churches had rest. But that rest did not last. The Jews picked up where Saul left off. It was an insult for a Jew to convert to Christianity. They were not only persecuted by their family and their own kinsmen, but also by the Roman government. The First Epistle of Peter addresses that issue. Thus believers were baptized right away. They knew what it meant to become a Christian. It literally was a life or death decision. If they decided to trust Christ, it could mean their imminent death. They knew what they were getting into.

People in Muslim lands face that same fierce opposition today. When they make a decision for Christ they understand the gospel; they understand what it means to be baptized; they understand the step they are taking. They are putting their life on the line. Many of them must go underground. They will be persecuted, even unto death. We don't have that here.
Instead we have "easy-believism." That wouldn't work if you were a Muslim in an Islamic nation.

 

[gb93433]

Our society is different. We don't know what it is like to be persecuted for our faith. Think what it was like before Saul was saved. He persecuted the church with a zeal unknown to churches today. And afterward the churches had rest. But that rest did not last. The Jews picked up where Saul left off. It was an insult for a Jew to convert to Christianity. They were not only persecuted by their family and their own kinsmen, but also by the Roman government. The First Epistle of Peter addresses that issue. Thus believers were baptized right away. They knew what it meant to become a Christian. It literally was a life or death decision. If they decided to trust Christ, it could mean their imminent death. They knew what they were getting into.

People in Muslim lands face that same fierce opposition today. When they make a decision for Christ they understand the gospel; they understand what it means to be baptized; they understand the step they are taking. They are putting their life on the line. Many of them must go underground. They will be persecuted, even unto death. We don't have that here.
Instead we have "easy-believism." That wouldn't work if you were a Muslim in an Islamic nation.

While that is generally true. There are still young people when they come to know Christ they are ridiculed and written off from the family. Some are written out of the will. When I came to Christ I received some nasty letters from family members who basically told me I was stupid. They continued on until some of them came to Christ. Some of them wanted little to do with my daughter. My master's thesis was never approved and I suspect because most of the members of the committee were Mormons. I had talked very openly about my faith and with Mormons as well. The Mormon bishop told some of the people in his "church" not to associate with me. He was in the same department where I was a student and was also on my committee.

Anyone who lives for Christ will have two followings--the antagonists and the faithful.