I spoke the truth.
Regenerated/saved "through faith"
Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by The Biblicist, May 5, 2012.
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http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1842947&postcount=161
And then you said:
2. Your accusation should have been edited out. There is no blasphemy there, only an ungodly wicked assertion by a depraved heart who has a disagreement with another poster. Now that is the truth Moriah. We all have depraved hearts, but you don't like to admit that.
If you apologize that will be a sign of repentance. If you don't then please don't post that you believe in repentance, for you don't. -
YOU said Jesus was speaking ONLY to the APOSTLES AND ABOUT THE APOSTLES.
YOU said the Apostles were already saved, obeyed, and loved Jesus.
Jesus says that if anyone loves him he will obey and the Father and Jesus will make their home with them.
However, YOU say they were already saved and obeying.
Therefore, YOU make Jesus as saying two oxymoron statements.
ox•y•mo•ron/ˌäksəˈmôrˌän/
Noun: A figure of speech in which apparently contradictory terms appear in conjunction (e.g., faith unfaithful kept him falsely true).
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John 14:1-3 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
This is a comforting promise to believers, not unbelievers. It is not about salvation.
"pretty ugly," "controlled chaos," "forward retreat," "open secret," "sweet sorrow," etc. The Lord Jesus Christ used nothing that comes remotely close to any oxymoron, and neither did I. That in itself is a false accusation.
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Jesus also says WHOEVER. “Whoever has my commands and obeys them, he is the one who loves me. He who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love him and show myself to him.” JOHN 14:21.
Main Entry: oxymoron Synonyms:
Gordian knot, absurdity, ambiguity, ambivalence, antinomy, asymmetry, crux, dilemma, disproportion, disproportionateness, enigma, equivocality, equivocation, heresy, heterodoxy, heterogeneity, hopelessness, impossibility, impossible, impossibleness, incoherence, incommensurability, incompatibility, inconceivability, incongruity, inconsistency, inconsonance, irony, irreconcilability, knot, knotty point, no chance, node, nodus, nonconformability, nonconformity, nonplus, paradox, perplexity, pons asinorum, poser, puzzle, quandary, self-contradiction, teaser, the impossible, unconformability, unconformity, unimaginability, unorthodoxy, unthinkability, vexed question, what cannot be, what cannot happen
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The Biblicist Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
Jn. 13:13 Ye call me Master and Lord: and ye say well; for so I am.
Jn. 16:27 For the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that I came out from God.
Jn. 17: 8 For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.
9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.
Jesus claims he is addressing believers, his own, those that belong to the Father, those who already love him - do you believe Jesus is lying also?
Furthermore, Jesus applies this to FUTURE BELIEVERS as well:
John 17:20 ¶ Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
So DHK told you the truth! This context is for believers only, those being directly addressed in the upper room and those future believers or for believers today.
Are you going to call Christ a liar? -
In John 14:20 Jesus says, “My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message,” -
The Biblicist Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
Lu 10:20 Notwithstanding in this rejoice not, that the spirits are subject unto you; but rather rejoice, because your names are written in heaven.
Jesus said this about them LONG BEFORE this upper room discourse at the END of three and a half years with them!
Why would Jesus claim their names were already written in heaven if they were still UNBELIEVERS in him as you claim above????? Can UNBELIEVERS rejoice that they names are witten down in heaven?
Are you saying they remained as UNBELIEVERS in Christ for three and a half years when Jesus told Peter long before this "blessed art thou Simon bar Jona for flesh and blood hath not revealed this unto thee but my Father in heaven"?
Joh 2:11 This beginning of miracles did Jesus in Cana of Galilee, and manifested forth his glory; and his disciples believed on him.
You are saying that the same disciples that John said already beleived on him at the beginning of his ministry are UNBELIEVERS in him in John 13-17 where he addressees the very same "disicples"??????
There are scores of scriptures where many "beleived on him" through his preaching to the multitudes and through the preaching by his disciples and you are saying that while many others are said to have believed on him that his own disciples were still UNBELIEVERS and addressed as UNBELIEVERS in John 13-17?
You are the unbeliever here! You are the one contradicting and denying Christ's own words that those he is addressing in John 13-17 are BELIEVERS in him.
Your conscience is so seared by your false doctrines that you could not see a red barn if it were pressed up against your nose! -
You are not sound, you are delusional. Where have I said they were unbelievers? Show now or repent. -
The Biblicist Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
You challenged DHK's assertion they were already "saved" and already obeying him,and already loving him when you said:
YOU said the Apostles were already saved, obeyed, and loved Jesus.
Jesus says that if anyone loves him he will obey and the Father and Jesus will make their home with them.
However, YOU say they were already saved and obeying. - Moriah post #103
Why would you emphasize "YOU say" if that was not what Jesus also said of them?
Jesus claimed they were saved already because he claimed their names were already written in heaven and that he was coming back for them.
Jesus claimed they were already obeying him because he claimed they were "his disciples" and a disciple by definition is one who FOLLOWS the master, OBEYS the Master, CONFORMS to the teaching and life of the MASTER.
Jesus claimed they were already loving him because one who keeps his commandments is one showing love and is a friend to Christ and Christ called them his friends:
14 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.
15 Henceforth I call you not servants; for the servant knoweth not what his lord doeth: but I have called you friends; for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you.
Moriah to claim they are not "saved" is to claim they are not true believers in him because you cannot be saved apart from believing in him. You deny they were "saved"!
Moriah to claim they do not love and obey him is to claim they are not true disciples of Him because by definition a "disciple" is one who BELIEVES and then obeys his Master and FOLLOWS His Master. -
The truth is that regardless if one at this time or that time has had their names written down, God can blot them out if He so chooses, just as He divorced the disobedient children of Israel.
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They were told that He would send them the Holy Spirit, the Comforter.
They were told that He would depart from them.
--These were all promises specific to the Apostles and not applicable to us today. Moriah, did you go to Jerusalem in order to receive the Holy Spirit? Have you received it yet?
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You do not even make sense, you say, “Even if the unbeliever would love and obey Jesus, Jesus would accept him.” That does not make sense, for if an unbeliever started to love and obey Jesus, then he would no longer be an unbeliever.
Jesus says IF ANYONE and WHOEVER.
You cannot stop going against the Word of God. -
I trust everyone will take note of that.
Now you say that even if the unbeliever would love and obey Jesus...
So you were talking about the unbeliever! That is hypocrisy, a lie! Deception!
Then, you won't admit it but the unbeliever will not love Jesus; will not obey Jesus. That is when you refused to admit that Jesus was speaking only to the twelve. He was not speaking to unbelievers. He was speaking to believers only; only to the disciples. The conversation had nothing to do with unbelievers, did it?
I never said it was for today. The historical context puts it in the upper room--Jesus alone with his disciples.
I said there were some applications that we can apply to us today. We can make applications from any Scripture.
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The Biblicist Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
He explicitly told those whom he was addressing that they were such already! He called them his "friends" and defined a friend as one who keeps his commandments and loves him. I quoted his words directly addressed to them - read it!
23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father’s which sent me.
He is merely defining what a man will do IF that man loves him. Obedience is the consequential effects of love for him. He is not prescribing what a man must do in order to obtain love for him or to be saved but defining the consequential proof that a man is saved and does love him!
You just as well argue that he is prescribing commandment keeping as a means to obtain love for him!!!! The truth is that commandment keeping is the consequence or proof of love not the means to attain love.
Love is a fruit of the Spirit's presence, not the means to attain the Spirit (Gal. 5:22). Love is demonstrated by obedience not obtained by obedience. The promise to come and abide with such a man is not the means of salvation but one of the many consequences or evidences of salvation.
Where does Love in the heart of man come from - Romans 5:6-7 - From the indwelling Holy Spirit -
You are too twisted and think no one else will catch it.
Jesus was even speaking about those who will believe in him! John 17:20.
The man who says, "I know him," but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 1 John 2:4.
Do you not think the Apostles need to understand that truth? Do you not think that YOU need to understand that truth?
First you said it was about ONLY the Apostles, then you finally concede that it is for all. -
The Biblicist Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
The apostles are believers, they are disciples and therefore Christ is addressing believers and disciples and directly describes them as such.
The promise is not to unbelievers as no unbeliever loves Christ as even you admitted that one cannot be an unbeliever and love Christ.
Love does not originate from men but from God "not that we loved God but God first loved us" "The fruit of the Spirit is love" and "the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us."
Obedience is the PROOF of love not how you obtain love. The promise is the CONSEQUENCE of love not how you obtain love. Love is proof that you are already a believer, already a disciple, already saved, and obedience and the promise are resultant consequences of that condition. -
Jesus SAYS IF anyone loves him, they will obey what he commands. AND he will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever---the Spirit of truth.
IF YOU OBEY JESUS’ COMMANDS, YOU WILL REMAIN IN MY LOVE. WHAT DOES THAT TELL YOU BIBLICIST? HOW ARE THE DISCIPLES, AND YOU, OR ANYONE WHO IS IN JESUS’ LOVE GOING TO REMAIN THERE? BY OBEYING JESUS!
John 15:10 If you obey my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have obeyed my Father's commands and remain in his love. -
HP: Simple straightforward truth of Scripture. Accept that truth and be enlightened, or reject that truth and remain in darkness.
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