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Regeneration vs Conversion

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by pinoybaptist, Apr 6, 2017.

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  1. pinoybaptist

    pinoybaptist Active Member
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    From a friend's FB page.
    All these years with BB and I still don't know how to attach an image to the post.
    So, anybody who's wondering what this is all about, there's a file attached.
    Just leaving tit with y'all.

    regeneration.vs.converted.jpg
     
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  2. Benoni

    Benoni Member
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    I do not believe in conversion for man has no freewill to save himself. That is a religious myth not a scriptural fact. God caused man to fall. Without a fall thee is no reason for a savior. Was not there a savior before there was a sinner? For the lamb was slain from the foundation of the earth.
     
  3. JonC

    JonC Lifelong Disciple
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    "Conversion" does not mean that man saves himself. It is instead the cry "repent and believe".
     
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  4. Benoni

    Benoni Member
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    Impossible for carnal man to call upon God for he is carnal. We are saved by grace not carnal man repenting. Carnal man cannot believe with out God
     
  5. JonC

    JonC Lifelong Disciple
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    What I am saying is that conversion is the process by which God saves men. This includes Gods drawing, regeneration, repentance, and belief. And I am leaning towards Köstenberger (and if I remember correctly, Carson) that baptism, while not a part of salvation itself, belongs to conversion as a manifestation of obedience (a fruit if the Spirit).
     
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  6. Peter

    Peter New Member
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    Of Him, through Him and to Him are all things incl. Creation and (spiritual) re-creation. Yes, Christ is the lamb slain from the foundation of the world! Just look at Isaiah's past tense language in Is. 53! Yet Christ had not been sacrificed at that point. The point is that it was so certain Is. could speak as though it had taken place! Regeneration IS the new birth: man is passive. It leads to conversion (two parts are repentance and faith). But godly repentance and saving faith are both gifts that God grants to the elect after regeneration and the person exercises his will in closing with God. Prior to this, it is his responsibility but due to being in a box (morally) that does not include God he cannot because he will not. All glory to God! And of course those He justifies He (progressively) sanctifies and the Christian is NOT passive in this process.
     
  7. pinoybaptist

    pinoybaptist Active Member
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    save himself from what ?
    Yeah, right.
    I've met people who say they don't believe in the doctrine of the Trinity because the word is not even mentioned in the Bible, even if the concept and principle is all over the Scriptures from the Old Testament all the way to the New Testament.
    Now, I meet you who do not believe in conversion and call it a religious myth, when the Savior Himself talked about conversion. As in:
    Matthew 13:15
    for this people’s heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

    Matthew 18:3
    and said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.

    Mark 4:12
    that seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.

    Luke 22:32
    but I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.

    John 12:40
    He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.

    God caused nobody to sin, and God did not cause the fall.
    He knew Adam would fall, not because He wants Adam to fall, but because Adam, is a created being.
    And if you look at your Bible, everything else around us was created by the word of His mouth..."and God said, let there be...."
    EXCEPT for man.
    With man, He took of the dirt of the ground and created him from out of that dirt, and breathed the breath of life into him, all the others, birds, fowls, fish, they were already living creatures when created.
    Man alone was from dust, a collection of lifeless, arid, totally waterless stuff from the ground.
    Man had NO spiritual life in him, the only reason for him being able to fellowship face to face with his Creator is because he had no sin in him, at that point.
    But he was duly warned, that on the day he violates the law in the garden, concerning that fruit, he will die.
    And because he had no spiritual life in him, he believed another creature.
    And the reason he was driven off the garden was clear: lest he take of the fruit of the tree of life, and eat of it, and live forever....
     
  8. Benoni

    Benoni Member
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    I will admit I did misspoke on conversion but my point is this man has no freewill to convert himself for he is carnal and dead in trust-passes and sin. We are saved by grace not carnal man freely choosing.
    How can carnal man chose Christ? It’s a spiritual experience to choose Christ. 1 Corinthians 2:

    14But the natural, nonspiritual man does not accept or welcome or admit into his heart the gifts and teachings and revelations of the Spirit of God, for they are folly (meaningless nonsense) to him; and he is incapable of knowing them [of progressively recognizing, understanding, and becoming better acquainted with them] because they are spiritually discerned and estimated and appreciated.

    Now lets get down to little Adam in the garden. First of all yes Adam is a dust man and God FORMED him from the dust of the earth and made him a living soul. But you are leaving out a important fact in context. Do not Baptist believe in context? God created man in His image and likeness before he formed man into living soul. God's image and likeness is spirit. Man has a spirit and a soul and a carnal mind. Man's soul and carnal mind are the same foundation for they were both formed at the same time after man was first created.

    More points.... Who placed man in the garden? Answer God. Who ordained a serpent to be their? Answer God. Who formed Adam into a dust man a carnal man a soulish man? Answer God. Who formed a man who was innocent and gullible naive? Answer God. Without a sinner why would we need a savior? Did not God created a savior long before a sinner because he knew the savior was needed? For the lamb was slain from the foundation of the earth.
     
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  9. PatrickMcIntyre

    PatrickMcIntyre New Member
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    You pose perhaps the most important question for evangelicals. Is regeneration CAUSED by man or God? Romans 9 says it is God's will, not man's will that determines who will be saved. But Romans 10 says "anyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved". So is everyone who "makes a decision for Christ" calling on the name of the Lord"? The modern heresy of decisional regeneration says "yes". That heresy promotes the idea that anyone who "makes a decision for Christ", has "saving faith" with de facto regeneration. The answer to this question is found in examining "converts" for fruit of the Holy Spirit. When Jesus says, "depart from Me, for I never knew you", there is no discussion of the 21st century view of "saving faith". Fruit of the Holy Spirit is only possible in people who God has supernaturally regenerated and indwelt with the Holy Spirit. This way of answering your question avoids the red herrings. Historically, "conversion" and "salvation" were considered synonymous by American Evangelicals until Scottish Common Sense Realism changed the salvation paradigm from God-relational to man-mechanical; from supernatural to psychological, from an all or nothing spiritual experience to a tipping point of the mind being convinced to serve God over self. After the First Great Awakening, as Presbyterians became more influential in American theology, Scottish Common Sense Realism absorbed the American Jonathan Edwards inspired theologies of Hopkins and Bellamy. By the Civil War, regeneration was a de facto assumption tied to "saving faith" is Scripture. Scottish Common Sense Realism infected Evangelical theology in England as well. Charles Spurgeon identified Scottish Common Sense Realism as the main culprit in the Downgrade of theology, in which the Holy Spirit was a vestigial remnant, a mere influence.
     
  10. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. Jn 1

    ....a threefold denial of any participation of man in the heavenly birth.
     
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  11. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    Not only Cornelius example, check out Christ's immediate assessment of Nathanael:

    47 Jesus saw Nathanael coming to him, and saith of him, Behold, an Israelite indeed, in whom is no guile! Jn 1

    Compare with:

    29 but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God. Ro 2
     
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  12. Benoni

    Benoni Member
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    I see carnal man as dead spiritually to the realm of God this means a carnal man cannot see, hear smell touch the realm of God which is spiritual not carnal, earthly or physical. Look at Eph 2 in context.

    Eph 2:1-8 gives a clear view in context how the salvation process is accomplished in carnal man. God’s Spirit has to quicken us out of our dead spiritual state. All the man made doctrine of freewill or choice cannot and will not waken carnal man out of that dead spiritual state. lets look at a few key words here.


    "QUICK ."Quick means living and active — LIFE-GIVING! making it active, operative, energizing and effective, notice the context of Ephesians which shows us step by step how the salvation process works.

    Eph, 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

    Right off the bat the first verse in context God Spirit must quicken or make us alive out of the realm of Spiritual dead.

    2Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
    3Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
    4But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
    Notice we are dead in sin.. again God's Word uses the word quicken

    5Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved
    6And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
    7That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
    8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
    9Not of works, lest any man should boast

     
  13. sheeptender

    sheeptender New Member
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    12 But as many as received him.....

    Not much of a denial in this verse.
     
  14. Benoni

    Benoni Member
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    God is not calling all people now.

    1 Timothy 2:6 (KJV) Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

    "For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and TO ALL THAT ARE AFAR OFF, even as many as the Lord our God shall call." (Acts 2:39).


    1 Corinthians 15:22-24
    22For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
    23But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.



    (order) Gk Strong’s NT:5001 tagma (tag'-mah); from NT:5021; something orderly in arrangement (a troop), i.e. (figuratively) a series or succession:

    If God does not call you, you cannot come.


    "For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in His own order; Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at His coming." (I Cor. 15:22-23). There is no doubt concerning the totality of salvation for every man-- whatever was affected by death through Adam, shall be MADE ALIVE THROUGH CHRIST. The triumph of Christ is far greater than the sin of Adam. But the point that is before us is that of TIMING-- with "every man in his own order." There is DIVINE ORDER in this NEW CREATION that is being brought forth, as God gathers one by one a people unto Himself. From Calvary until this present time, God has been working in what is rightly termed "HIS FIRSTFRUITS." We who are living at the ending of this age (web ed. note: which still could be a long ways away) are still being drawn into this "firstfruits order." But never forget, the firstfruits of a harvest are the PROMISE that all the rest of the harvest will follow in its time. (Ray Prinzing)
     
  15. Benoni

    Benoni Member
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    carnal man cannot receive God until they are called they are carnal. can a dead man choose?
     
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  16. John of Wood Green

    John of Wood Green New Member
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    I think you are confusing conversion with growth.
     
  17. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    ...only those born of the Spirit are able to receive Him:

    14 Now the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him; and he cannot know them, because they are spiritually judged. 1 Cor 2
     
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  18. sheeptender

    sheeptender New Member
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  19. Rlee

    Rlee Member
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    Are you suggesting man is a spiritual robot belonging to God?
     
  20. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Salvation of God included the entire package, as God enables the sinner to repent/receive Jesusa as Lord, be justified/sauctified, and so none of us would be saved apart from his grace and mercy!
     
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