1. Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Featured Regeneration

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by glad4mercy, Oct 7, 2019.

  1. glad4mercy

    glad4mercy Active Member

    Joined:
    Sep 20, 2016
    Messages:
    503
    Likes Received:
    60
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Early in my Christian walk, I understood being drawn to Jesus by the Father as the Grace of God preceding out faith, and then regeneration was the New Birth that logically, not temporally followed our faith. But I understood my faith and my regeration as having occurred similtaneously.

    So hearing, drawn, followed by regeneration/faith.

    Through listening to and reading people of different persuasions, including Calvinists, and MORE importantly, through growth in reading the scriptures, I came to understand regeneration better.

    I now understand regeneration to be the monergistic act of God in which the spiritually dead believer is raised to life by the Power of God ALONE by the means or agency of faith through hearing the Word of God.

    Is this what Calvinism teaches?

    Secondly, how do Calvinists differentiate between "drawing" and "regeneration"?

    I was on another message board recently, and I was attacked rigorously and abusively for my view on regeneration and preservation/perserverance by OSAS Arminians, who believed in preservation, but rejected perserverance of the saints, which I hold.
     
    #1 glad4mercy, Oct 7, 2019
    Last edited: Oct 7, 2019
    • Like Like x 1
    • Informative Informative x 1
  2. davidtaylorjr

    davidtaylorjr Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 14, 2019
    Messages:
    2,043
    Likes Received:
    412
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Regeneration and Saving faith happen almost simultaneously. The drawing could be coming for quite sometime.
     
    • Like Like x 2
    • Useful Useful x 1
  3. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2009
    Messages:
    14,127
    Likes Received:
    1,446
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Isaac born after the Spirit before he was weaned; David made to hope while on his mother's breast; John the Baptist filled with the Spirit while in the womb; Paul separated from his mother's womb to preach to the nations, the birth from above [regeneration] occurs long before ever hearing.

    And yes, some Calvinists teach this. So did the OLD Southern Baptists, Primitive Baptists have always held to it.
     
    #3 kyredneck, Oct 7, 2019
    Last edited: Oct 7, 2019
    • Winner Winner x 1
    • Useful Useful x 1
  4. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    May 14, 2001
    Messages:
    25,591
    Likes Received:
    2,220
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Wake me when the smoke clears...
     
    • Informative Informative x 1
  5. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2009
    Messages:
    14,127
    Likes Received:
    1,446
    Faith:
    Baptist
    ...won't be any smoke on my account, I'll have my say and be done with it, been down this road too many times, people are going to believe what they want to believe regardless of what serious meditation on the scriptures will show. Rare, these days, are serious students of the word.
     
    • Like Like x 5
    • Agree Agree x 1
  6. glad4mercy

    glad4mercy Active Member

    Joined:
    Sep 20, 2016
    Messages:
    503
    Likes Received:
    60
    Faith:
    Baptist
    How does your first paragraph fit with Titus 3:5 and Ephesians 2:1-10 etc
     
  7. glad4mercy

    glad4mercy Active Member

    Joined:
    Sep 20, 2016
    Messages:
    503
    Likes Received:
    60
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Trying to avoid arguments. No smoke, just enlightening please. Hard to see with smoke in your eyes
     
    • Like Like x 1
  8. glad4mercy

    glad4mercy Active Member

    Joined:
    Sep 20, 2016
    Messages:
    503
    Likes Received:
    60
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Thanks for your replies.

    Please Do not assume that because someone hasn’t yet seen what you’ve seen it means they’re not serious students of the Word.

    With that said, how does what you say fit with the biblical teaching of regeneration, Titus 3;5. Ephesians 2, 1 Peter 1:23?

    Not being argumentative. Just trying to follow you.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  9. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2009
    Messages:
    14,127
    Likes Received:
    1,446
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Good, I appreciate that. I wish more had your attitude.

    The passages you cite are CORPORATE, not individual.

    The only two places that word 'regeneration' occurs in the scriptures:

    28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, that ye who have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit on the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. Mt 19

    4 But when the kindness of God our Saviour, and his love toward man, appeared,
    5 not by works done in righteousness, which we did ourselves, but according to his mercy he saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, Titus 3

    "The regeneration" is corporate, it is 'the building again' of the house of David [Acts of the Apostles 15:14-16], the restoration of the Kingdom [Acts of the Apostles 1:6], the building of the Church [Matthew 16:18]. This 'regeneration' came about by the preaching of the gospel [1 Corinthians 4:15] which explains the 'corporate' intention of passages such as 1 Peter 1:23. Only those 'born from above' AND washed with the gospel [John 3:5] may 'enter into' this regeneration.

    [add]

    I forgot to mention that I reject the orthodox notion that 'regeneration' is synonymous with 'the birth from above'. Regeneration pertains to the corporate, the heavenly birth is personal.
     
    #9 kyredneck, Oct 7, 2019
    Last edited: Oct 7, 2019
    • Winner Winner x 1
  10. Dave Gilbert

    Dave Gilbert Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 11, 2018
    Messages:
    1,849
    Likes Received:
    380
    Faith:
    Baptist
    I'm not entirely sure what "Calvinists" teach ( outside of the "TULIP" ), but that is what I see when I read and study God's word.;)

    However, I would not use the term, "means" of faith as it may apply to man.
    To me, faith is never the means to gain God's favor...it is the gift of God ( Ephesians 2:8 ), a fruit of the Spirit ( Galatians 5:22 ) and the evidence of salvation ( Hebrews 11:1 ).:)
    Not actually being a "Calvinist" in the traditional sense ( I came to the "doctrines of grace" through my reading of God's word alone after over 25 years of being among "Traditonalist" Independent Baptists ), I get called one anyway...
    So, I'll answer as if I were one:

    "Drawing" is the act of the Father ( John 6:44 ) through the Holy Spirit whereby a person is literally put in front of the preaching of His word.
    They often don't know why they ended up there, but after they have sat awhile under the "sinner's spotlight", they realize it was all orchestrated by God.:Sneaky

    "Regeneration" is when God takes out the heart of "stone", and puts in a heart of "flesh" like He will for His people Israel ( Ezekiel 11:19, Ezekiel 36:26 )...
    A new "nature" that is no longer in opposition to, or "at enmity" ( Romans 8:5-8 ) with God.

    In other words, the new birth, or being "born again" ( John 3:3 ).

    As you can see, @kyredneck and I don't agree on everything.;)
    I see "regeneration" in Matthew 19:28 as meaning when believers are in their glorified bodies ( first resurrection ) during the 1,000 year millennium when Christ rules from Jerusalem...the "re-generation" of their bodies.

    From what I've seen, most "Calvinists" are a-millennial, in that they do not believe in a literal 1,000 year period that starts immediately after the Tribulation with Christ reigning over the earth from David's throne.
    I'm not surpised.

    In another thread on this forum, I tried to tell someone who disagrees quite strongly with me on what seems to be every post I make, that the same things happen on "both sides" of this issue... by people who are passionate for their beliefs of Scripture.

    To me, no one group has any corner on ungodly behavior.
    There are people from almost every doctrinal persuasion That I am aware of, that will rip others apart in their zeal... despite the words of 2 Timothy 2:25.:(
     
    #10 Dave Gilbert, Oct 7, 2019
    Last edited: Oct 7, 2019
  11. tyndale1946

    tyndale1946 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Aug 30, 2001
    Messages:
    8,143
    Likes Received:
    1,024
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Kentucky... What do you mean by Corporate Regeneration compared to individual new birth?... I may need to re-think my point of view... I know you have plenty of scriptures to back it up... Brother Glen:)
     
  12. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2009
    Messages:
    14,127
    Likes Received:
    1,446
    Faith:
    Baptist
    These are 'corporate':

    15 For though ye have ten thousand tutors in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers; for in Christ Jesus I begat you through the gospel. 1 Cor 4

    18 Of his own will he brought us forth by the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures. Jas 1

    3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to his great mercy begat us again unto a living hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
    22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in your obedience to the truth unto unfeigned love of the brethren, love one another from the heart fervently:
    23 having been begotten again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, through the word of God, which liveth and abideth. 1 Pe 1

    14 Symeon hath rehearsed how first God visited the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.
    15 And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written,
    16 After these things I will return, And I will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen; And I will build again the ruins thereof, And I will set it up: Acts 15

    Remember, it literally is 'born from above' (born of God, born of the Spirit, NOT born of the preached word), NOT born anew, or born again:

    7 `Thou mayest not wonder that I said to thee, It behoveth you to be born from above;
    8 the Spirit where he willeth doth blow, and his voice thou dost hear, but thou hast not known whence he cometh, and whither he goeth; thus is every one who hath been born of the Spirit.` Jn 3

    who -- not of blood nor of a will of flesh, nor of a will of man but -- of God were begotten. [NOT OF THE PREACHED WORD!] Jn 1:13 YLT
    if ye kNow that he is righteous, know ye that every one doing the righteousness, of him hath been begotten. [NOT OF THE PREACHED WORD!] 1 Jn 2:29 YLT
    9 every one who hath been begotten of God,[NOT OF THE PREACHED WORD!] sin he doth not, because his seed in him doth remain, and he is not able to sin, because of God he hath been begotten.[NOT OF THE PREACHED WORD!] 1 Jn 3:9 YLT
    7 Beloved, may we love one another, because the love is of God, and every one who is loving, of God he hath been begotten,[NOT OF THE PREACHED WORD!] and doth know God 1 Jn 4:7 YLT
    1 Every one who is believing that Jesus is the Christ, of God he hath been begotten,[NOT OF THE PREACHED WORD!] and every one who is loving Him who did beget, doth love also him who is begotten of Him [NOT OF THE PREACHED WORD!]
    4 because every one who is begotten of God [NOT OF THE PREACHED WORD!] doth overcome the world, and this is the victory that did overcome the world -- our faith
    18 We have known that every one who hath been begotten of God [NOT OF THE PREACHED WORD!] doth not sin, but he who was begotten of God [NOT OF THE PREACHED WORD!]doth keep himself, and the evil one doth not touch him 1 Jn 5 YLT
     
    • Winner Winner x 1
    • Useful Useful x 1
  13. tyndale1946

    tyndale1946 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Aug 30, 2001
    Messages:
    8,143
    Likes Received:
    1,024
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Thanks Kentucky... I knew all about the new birth that was never in question but never regeneration in a corporate sense... I'll have look into this corporate regeneration further... Brother Glen:)
     
  14. glad4mercy

    glad4mercy Active Member

    Joined:
    Sep 20, 2016
    Messages:
    503
    Likes Received:
    60
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Do you know Koine Greek?
     
  15. glad4mercy

    glad4mercy Active Member

    Joined:
    Sep 20, 2016
    Messages:
    503
    Likes Received:
    60
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Regeneration. Paliggenesia, from palin which means again and gennesia which means born. Born again, could also refer to created anew.

    I believe the Matthew passage is eschatological. The Titus passage is soteriological and personal (individual), because it is referring to salvation

    Your interpretation of the Matthew passage is interesting. Something for me to consider

    Blessings
     
    • Like Like x 1
  16. glad4mercy

    glad4mercy Active Member

    Joined:
    Sep 20, 2016
    Messages:
    503
    Likes Received:
    60
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Good answer. So is there a purpose in God drawing us for a season before monergistically regenerating us in the Calvinistic system? Or is this asking a question that is beyond our understanding, mysterious?

    Blessings
     
  17. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2009
    Messages:
    14,127
    Likes Received:
    1,446
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Lol, no, I don't even do English well...:)

    I agree with a few others and see a 'corporate' connection here concerning the washing of regeneration (and if you're a Dispie this ain't gonna jibe with you):

    24 For I will take you from among the nations, and gather you out of all the countries, and will bring you into your own land.
    25 And I will sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you. Ezek 36

    5 Jesus answered, `Verily, verily, I say to thee, If any one may not be born of water, and the Spirit, he is not able to enter into the reign of God; Jn 3 YLT

    4 But when the kindness of God our Saviour, and his love toward man, appeared,
    5 not by works done in righteousness, which we did ourselves, but according to his mercy he saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit,
    6 which he poured out upon us richly, through Jesus Christ our Saviour; Titus 3
     
    • Like Like x 1
  18. glad4mercy

    glad4mercy Active Member

    Joined:
    Sep 20, 2016
    Messages:
    503
    Likes Received:
    60
    Faith:
    Baptist
    By means, I was referring to the instrumental means GOD USES. I also believe and know faith is a gift

    I wholeheartedly agree with your definition of regeneration. I only mildly disagree with your definition of drawing, I believe drawing is not only putting someone before a preacher, but also an action of God that happens while they are hearing.

    I agree with your definition of regeneration as used in Matthew, except I see it as a regeneration of the entire Kosmos, including but not limited to our bodies. But that is a tentative interpretation

    I am also premillennialism in eschatology
     
    • Like Like x 1
  19. glad4mercy

    glad4mercy Active Member

    Joined:
    Sep 20, 2016
    Messages:
    503
    Likes Received:
    60
    Faith:
    Baptist
    I agree there is a corporate connection, but regeneration and renewal in Titus 3:5 is referring to aspects of the salvation of our souls, so it is also deeply personal and individual as well as corporate. It is both

    Regeneration in Matthew is a different context. In Titus, it is soteriological, about salvation. In Matthew, it seems to be used eschatologically

    I think the two uses are speaking of two different things; one already happened (salvation of soul which is already accomplished for bellievers) in Titus, and one is yet future (in Matthew)

    I do understand your corporate application in Titus. It is both individual and corporate. A lot of aspects of salvation are

    If I am missing anything, I am open to learning new things from God’s Word
     
    #19 glad4mercy, Oct 8, 2019
    Last edited: Oct 8, 2019
    • Like Like x 1
  20. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2009
    Messages:
    14,127
    Likes Received:
    1,446
    Faith:
    Baptist
    2 Ye know that when ye were Gentiles ye were led away unto those dumb idols, howsoever ye might led. 1 Cor 12

    Question: If we're no longer Gentiles, we are ____________ .
     
Loading...