Sovereign Election

He and others repeat half verses and the popular error of the day so much they convince themselves they are in the bible and create a bogus theology out of these fragments.

AA.....corrects him in the greek....he attacks A A

others correct him historically...he denies it anyway..
he posts links that he does not grasp agree with those he argues against...lol.....on and on.

 

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

I would expect that the Calvinist would change the meanings of words here to fit their pre-conceived ideas when the plain sense of the scripture ought to be heeded.

 

How can you honestly say that if God has only elected a few in comparison to the many that he has damned to Hell according to the doctrine of reprobation.
How can you honestly say that if the "free choice" to come to him is not there for them to come. "If you trust him" you say. But on the other hand, you say they can't--they are dead corpses. They can't respond. It is a contradiction. "If you do not repent..." But you believe they cannot repent. Again a contradiction in your own theology. Have you become a non-Cal, an Arminian as you would call us?

 

Again, you go out of your way to show that you really don't understand what you rail against. I'm not being mean or trying to attack you, I'm just stating what is apparent to all, you don't understand Calvinism. If you did understand it, you would see how there is no contradiction whatsoever in anything I said.

 

highlighting the second part of the vers e does not negate the first part of the verse which really explains what the passage means what Peter is saying is that everyone that verse is talking about is going to be saved...God is not willing that any one of them perish. ... He is going to save each and every one that Peter was speaking about

 

2Pe 3:9-11
(9) The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
(10) But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
(11) Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,

Who is avoiding the context here?
The context is about them that are going to perish. That day will come. And when it does come judgment will take place. The heavens shall pass away. The earth also shall be burned up. What else will happen just before this time? The Great White Throne Judgment, of course. God is not willing that any should perish!
Or do you not believe in a gospel of grace that teaches eternal security?
Do you believe in a message of works and that the perishing refers to the elect that must work for their salvation that they perish not!!
Now that is heresy!

No, God is not willing that any, not a single unsaved person, should perish in the Lake of Fire, when the earth shall be burnt up and destroyed.

Is this not consistent with OT teaching:
, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel? (Ez.33:11)

Adam Clarke:

 

DHK, I think you may be starting with a false premise thinking that God is obligated to save anybody or that anybody deserves the love of God, that He chose to save a few is very gracious considering that all human deserve to be thrown into the eternal lake of fire right NOW. God saves who He wants and He does discriminate. See my signature.

 

DHK, first of all, who is the subject, it's the "beloved"? It's ALL the beloved, not every human that has ever been born.

2Pe 3:1 This second epistle, beloved, I now write unto you; in both which I stir up your pure minds by way of remembrance:
2Pe 3:2 That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour:
2Pe 3:3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,
2Pe 3:4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.
2Pe 3:5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
2Pe 3:6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:
2Pe 3:7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
2Pe 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

 

in post 148 Robert William has begun to answer the question very solidly there will be more answers coming when I get to a keyboard later unless one of the other brothers jumps in there corrects your misconceptions of the passage

 

Jacob have I loved; Esau have I hated. This was not indiscriminate. The question is why? There is an answer.

It is not me that has the false premise here. True, God is not obligated to save anyone. But God is a God of love, mercy and kindness. He is not a God of hate. That kind of attribute cannot be reconciled with love and mercy.

The basis on which God chose to save some is not arbitrary; it is love.
"He so loved..." It does not say "the elect" and neither can the elect be forced into that passage. It is the world. He loved and loves all.
He saves those who come to him by faith; those who accept the payment for their sins by faith. That is the only way to salvation. It is through Him. Again, salvation is not arbitrary. It is by grace through faith--not arbitrarily selected before the foundations of the earth.

It is based on God's omniscience of who would choose him by faith.
The elect are those who would believe in Christ by faith. God knew ahead of time (the definition of foreknow--knowing before) who would believe and who would not believe. On that basis "the elect" are chosen.
The Calvinist has it backwards. He says they are elect and therefore they are bound to choose. They have no choice. That is wrong. Man does have a free will. God simply knows what choice man will make and does not interfere with the choice he will make.

John MacArthur is as zealous a Calvinist that I know of in our time.
Even he denies to some extent what many of you are advocating here. This is from his One Volume Commentary on the Bible.

IOW, they are not saved because: out of their own will they have rejected Christ.
One could also accept the corollary. One is saved because, of their own will they trusted Christ. On that basis a person is one of the elect.

 

the last paragraph of post 150 is not possible because of John 1:13

 

Calvinism is mistaken doctrine.

1) We all sin at some time or another, for all have fallen short of the glory of God. Therefore there are none that are righteous. This truth does not support Calvinism's Total Spiritual Inability doctrine.

2) Some men some of the time do seek after God, Matthew 23:13. So scripture does not preclude some unregenerates understanding some spiritual milk of the time. Valid doctrine must be consistent with all scripture.

3) Logically there are none who seek after God all the time, or there are none who seek after God when they are sinning. That does not contradict that some seek after God, i.e. Matthew 23:13.

4) Efforts to bolster your argument using logical fallacies demonstrates the inherent weakness of your argument.

Just for grins, folks, open your Bibles to Psalm 14. Note how the none refers not to all mankind, but to wicked fools who say there is no God. Keep reading to verse 5, and note that some seek God as a refuge. So the premise, no one ever seeks God, is unbiblical.

Total Spiritual Inability has been demonstrated as mistaken doctrine as follows:
1) No one seeks God does not say as Calvinism claims, no one seeks God at any time while unregenerate. This is an example of adding to the text to pour Calvinism into the text. Contextually, Paul is saying since no one seeks God all the time, we all sin, therefore everyone is under sin.

2) The passage 1 Corinthians 2:14 to 3:3 teaches that fallen natural men cannot understand some spiritual things, spiritual meat, because they are not indwelt. But men of flesh can understand spiritual milk, the fundamentals of the gospel.

3) Matthew 23:13 teaches some men were entering heaven, and thus seeking God effectively, while unregenerate and not under the compulsion of irresistible grace, because they were blocked. This verse teaches both Total Spiritual Inability and Irresistible Grace are mistaken doctrines.

Collectively, we find that these three verses provide objective evidence Calvinism is in error.

Four points of the Calvinist TULIP, i.e. TULI are mistaken doctrines with no actual support in scripture. They have poured Calvinism into the text by selectively choosing verses out of context and adding a little here and taking a little away there.

How were we chosen, unconditionally or through faith in the truth? Through faith!!

Did God desire all men to be saved or just some? All men!!

Did Jesus die for the church or all mankind? Both!!

Were the men entering heaven blocked? Yes, thus the grace was not irresistible.

 

John 1:13 is not isolated. It is connected with verse 12. Study verse 12.

 

DHK

LET me think about that for like half a second......It would be you. totally you have missed it big time...let,s see why

Wrong...almost totally wrong. Verse ten mentions judgement, that is true.

However you have missed the whole context of the whole chapter...let's see how...because you evidently do not understand why...:wavey:

This is not the main theme of the chapter at all. RobertWilliam gave you a big clue, and we have presented the truth of the chapter before....so you reject that once again....so now you offer a wrong idea totally.

This chapter is not written to those who perish primarily.
I will show this soon enough.

The way you butcher this verse cutting it in half reminds me of when Satan was quoting only half the verse from psalm 91 to Jesus in Luke 4.

God is very willing that many perish at the White throne...He has even announced in advance what he will say to them...Depart from Me.

To use this second half out of the context totally is to make a mockery of scripture as if it was a poem in high school english class that you are speculating on.

Let's build on what Robert William began to offer earlier...




go to part 2-

 

2 Peter 3 King James Version (KJV)

Peter identifies who he is writing to...not as you say...those who are perishing- no He is writing this second epistle to the beloved...the elect.
How do we know?
Easy...He says it is the SECOND epistle! So that links us to the first epistle...correct??? How were these strangers addressed the first time?


1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,

2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,

5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

They are foreknown by God...WHOM HE DID FOREKNOW He also did predestinate etc

He is reminding these elect believers of what Is promised in the Covenant salvation they have been called to.

Scoffers have come mocking the faith once delivered to the saints....This is the CONTEXT OF THIS WHOLE CHAPTER.

Peter is addressing to things....what the promise of God is to those who are in Covenant with Him....as opposed to the ungodly scoffers who are trying to discourage them and question the certainty of the Churchs Victory in Christ.

This speaks to the whole OT ...the Covenant promises being fulfilled in Jesus. It speaks of God's electing love and the 100% certainty of what God has purposed to do by Electing and saving grace in all the prophets....Isa 40-66, ezkiel 34-44, Jer 31 joel 2-3 etc....
Now the contrast by the enemies..

3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,
4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.
5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:
7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

He states what will happen to the wicked in his day, is what happened to the wicked in times past...the died in unbelief and went into the righteous judgement of God.


8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing,

In reminding the elect in this second epistle....he does not want them to be ignorant...so pay attention ...because you still are according to what you have posted......
that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

He is addressing the Beloved...those being saved by God...he is telling them...do not worry about the time that has passed by...God has a plan for the whole age....

he is speaking of God's promise to His people...he would be their God, they would be His people.....

The some men...are the scoffers from vs 3-7...read it again read it as many times as you like...it will not change-

,

The long suffering of God leads to the salvation of all the elect from all time....the US WARD..... which you want to ignore or explain it away.
If the lord returned in Peters day...none of us today would have been saved...we would never have been born....Thankfully because we were part of God's plan...he waited then and he waits now, until all the elect will be born and drawn savingly to Jesus.

Not one of the people spoken of here...the beloved who were already saved, the elect beloved who were yet to be born,,,, not ONE WILL Perish....each and every person who is meant to be saved will be....NO More/No less.
A word study will reveal two words used in the greek which you discount all the time...Bulemai, and thelo...are words used to describe the term willing....The way they are used here is that God has decreed destined and purposed that none of the beloved will perish...not ONE!
This is what is taught and to clinch it we just have to continue in context and read the rest of the chapter....

10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

he is still speaking to believers exhorting them to required holiness

12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

13

.

He is still speaking of the Beloved, Foreknown ,ELECT....WE ACCORDING TO HIS PROMISE.......

Do you begin to see how badly you have totally missed the whole passage??? Wait there is even more!

14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.

15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation;

This not only clinches this truth, but Peter now appeals to Pauls writing about God's election and long suffering toward His elect people tying in Romans and Pauls other writings on this topic.
Not only are you dead wrong on calvinism but your dispy ideas get flushed in this passage....

20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.

26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.

even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;

You have to come to grips with this chapter and revamp your wrong ideas or the warning found here as do other members of team anti-cal Jihad.

 

By the way...No Cal has any problem with vs 12 or 13...we believe both. It is you who have stated it is the will of the flesh, the will of man...the text in John says it is not of the will of the flesh,and not of the will of man , but of God.:thumbsup::wavey::thumbsup:

 

You didn't have to think at all. In fact you didn't. You just assumed.

I understand the Scriptures Icon. But I am puzzled why you do not.

That is what most of the chapter is about--judgment. Apparently you avoid it.
Do you also avoid the convenient fact that every book of the NT is written to believers, so the fact that verse 9 mentions believers is immaterial to the interpretation relating "to the elect." That is just an excuse to relate it to the elect and not the rest of the chapter, just a diversionary tactic, that is all. A typical Calvinistic interpretation.

The entire NT is written to believers. It is not being butchered here. I am quoting the second half of the chapter which deals with judgment, a subject you are ignoring. It is a subject of hell, the Lake of Fire, the destruction of the earth, a time of people perishing--and God says he is not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance. All means all.

A direct denial of scripture. Do you not understand this chapter. What you said is not the direct will of God. It is the permissive will of God. He will allow that to happen, but only because the disobedient have willfully rebelled against him and refused his gift of salvation.

You are the one that is mocking God here--making him into a monster. He isn't. He is a God of Love, not of hate.

Read again the two quotes I gave you.
First by Adam Clark:

Now by John MacArthur:

Don't these men carry any weight with you?

 

DHK;

Strawman alert!:laugh::laugh: Dhk out of bullets...goes to accuse me of believing a words salvation???

:laugh:

Multitudes do perish...are you suggesting God's will does not get done???

35 And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?

God takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked....that does not mean that they would not perish as you suggest....it just says He takes no pleasure in it.
Another verse over your head
:thumbsup:

Jesus weeps over Jerusalem Knowing they are going to hell for sure.

 

Dhk

 

We can let the readers decide...you are exposed for what you are...You still miss the chapter...I do not believe you have been allowed to grasp any of it yet....but others will....:wavey::wavey::thumbsup: