Adam Clarke:
Again, that is Clarke's quote.
That is not your position; never has been your position; and in fact goes entirely against your position. Don't even pretend to think that you agree with Adam Clarke.
Here again, don't play the hypocrite Icon. You disagree with Spurgeon as well:
You have never held this view. You have held an opposite view that God selects before the foundation of the world some to eternal life and damns the rest to eternal torment in the lake of fire--just like the WOCF says so. That is not what MacArthur believes. He does not believe in the hard determinism you believe in.
He believes that those that are damned are not damned on the basis of predetermined reprobation, but rather because they have rejected Christ.
As Clarke said:
The path to damnation is the path of one who rejects the person and provision of Jesus Christ and holds on to sin.
Calvinism doesn't provide the mercy enough for the reprobate to even understand the gospel so that they have a chance to reject it. That is what Calvin taught. Even if they did hear the gospel they could not understand it for they were corpses when it came to the truth of the gospel. But MacArthur and Clarke are not espousing that view.
You, however, do.
Sovereign Election
Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by Robert William, Feb 20, 2015.
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Revmitchell Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
One of the reasons I stay away from the cal debates is you get sucked into spending more time arguing over who is not debating the right way and who is deliberately misusing context that everyone just talks past each other. It is not fruitful and mostly childish. It edifies no one.
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Iconoclast Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
DHK
Adam Clarke:
This is to avoid the passage, compromise and say nothing, as men do not want to repent and seek God.They need a supernatural work to happen to them...as AA pointed out to you in John 3...which you rejected.
This is why RM commented on what he did....you did not stay on point. Of course you have no answer to it. So you try and speak for me now:laugh:
1]Those who perish and go to hell,...yes they do
2]go because they are depraved ....yes having died in Adam...T
3]are depraved and worthy only of hell ...yes they are
4]and have rejected the only remedy, Jesus Christ...they do every time:thumbs:
5]not because they were created for hell and predetermined to go there. ... I hold the infralapsarian position, although it would not bother me if the supra lapsarian position was the biblical one.....God can and does do whatever he wills to do.
6]The path to damnation is the path of one who rejects the person and provision of Jesus Christ and holds on to sin ....this is also true
So you are not my spokesmen...you are fired:laugh:
They do go into second death ...they are responsible to repent and believe but as Spurgeon says...they hold on to their sin
By the decree of God, for the manifestation of his glory, some men and angels are predestinated, or foreordained to eternal life through Jesus Christ, to the praise of his glorious grace;
others being left to act in their sin to their just condemnation, to the praise of his glorious justice.
( 1 Timothy 5:21; Matthew 25:34; Ephesians 1:5, 6; Romans 9:22, 23; Jude 4 )
Got it now:wavey:
Answer me from the last two posts which offer correction to your error. -
Robert William MemberSite Supporter
Tit 1:7 For a bishop must be blameless, as the steward of God; not selfwilled, not soon angry, not given to wine, no striker, not given to filthy lucre;
Tit 1:8 But a lover of hospitality, a lover of good men, sober, just, holy, temperate;
Tit 1:9 Holding fast the faithful word as he hath been taught, that he may be able by sound doctrine both to exhort and to convince the gainsayers.
Tit 1:10 For there are many unruly and vain talkers and deceivers, specially they of the circumcision:
Tit 1:11 Whose mouths must be stopped, who subvert whole houses, teaching things which they ought not, for filthy lucre's sake.
Tit 1:12 One of themselves, even a prophet of their own, said, The Cretians are alway liars, evil beasts, slow bellies.
Tit 1:13 This witness is true. Wherefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith;
Tit 1:14 Not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth.
Tit 1:15 Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled.
Tit 1:16 They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.
Mitchell, don't be such a woos. -
I see a Calvinist posted two non-germane verses in yet another futile attempt to change the subject. They have no answer, other than "taint so" for Matthew 23:13, Romans 3:10-11, and 1 Corinthians 2:14-3:3.
And then we have the video of a person failing to accomplish what he had intended. This typifies the Calvinist behavior of charging opponents with their behavior. All they have is belittle and disparage those who hold well supported biblical views, and so reading the posts presents plop, plop, plop into the mattress. -
Robert William MemberSite Supporter
It is man who is deceitful (Jer. 17:9), full of evil (Mark 7:21-23)
loves darkness (John 3:19),
does not seek for God (Rom. 3:10-12),
is ungodly (Rom. 5:6),
dead in his sins (Eph. 2:1),
by nature a child of wrath (Eph. 2:3),
cannot understand spiritual things (1 Cor. 2:14),
a slave of sin (Rom. 6:16-20)
Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me (Psalm 51:5)
13 reasons semi pelagians/pelagians are wrong !
1)man has a heart that is deceitful (Jer. 17:9)
2)man is full of evil (Mark 7:21-23)
3)man loves darkness (John 3:19),
4)man does not seek for God (Rom. 3:10-12),
5)man is ungodly (Rom. 5:6),
6)man is dead in his sins (Eph. 2:1),
7)man by nature a child of wrath (Eph. 2:3),
8)man cannot understand spiritual things (1 Cor. 2:14),
9)man is a slave of sin (Rom. 6:16-20)
10)man is sinful in the womb and conceived in sin(Psalm 51:5)
11)man cannot do good(Romans 3:10)
12) man hates God (Rom 8:7)
13)man loves sin (1 John 3:19) -
Hi Robert Willians, why not address the three passages? Why try once again to change the subject?
I see you listed (#8) 1 Cor. 2:14 but somehow did not address the passage where Paul teaches that unregenerates cannot understand spiritual meat, but can understand spiritual milk. I am reminded of the movie Top Gun, where Maverick will not engage.
And I see where Romans 3:10-12 is mentioned but again the Calvinist addition, "at any time" is not acknowledged.
And of course Matthew 23:13 is no where to be found.
You have got to love them folks. -
Robert William MemberSite Supporter
! Cor 2:14 says the natural man will NOT RECEIVE the things of God but sees them as foolishness, that would include milk.
I don't know what you are trying to say about Rom 3:10-12 but says nobody is seeking for God, that proves the depravity of man.
Rom 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
Rom 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
Rom 3:12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
Rom 3:13 Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:
Rom 3:14 Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:
Rom 3:15 Their feet are swift to shed blood:
Rom 3:16 Destruction and misery are in their ways:
Rom 3:17 And the way of peace have they not known:
Rom 3:18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.
Matt 23:12 is talking about the Pharisees teaching Law and bondage, this has nothing to do with the New Testament Church. -
Either way it does not agree with what you posted above.
They go to hell because they deliberately reject Christ according to Spurgeon
NOT,
Because they were determined or foreordained or elected to go there. -
A Conversation with the Lord
Man: “Surely there are 50 righteous some of the time.”
The Lord: “As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one.”
Man: “Surely there are 45 righteous some of the time.”
The Lord: “As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one.”
Man: “Surely there are 30 righteous some of the time.”
The Lord: “As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one.”
Man: “Surely there are 20 righteous some of the time.”
The Lord: “As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one.”
Man: “Surely there are 10 righteous some of the time.”
The Lord: “As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one.”
Man: "Surely there is one righteous some of the time."
The Lord: "If there is one righteous I will not destroy your city."
(Man’s city is destroyed.)
Man: “But surely there was one person who sought after You some of the time.”
The Lord: “There is none who seeketh after Me. It is I who seeketh after them. Have you never read the account of Adam and Eve in the Garden? Do you not know why I am the Good Shepherd?”
Man: “But what about Matt. 23:13?”
The Lord: "Read My Lips………….THERE IS NONE THAT DOETH GOOD, NO, NOT ONE."
(Man is silent having been turned into a pile of doggy booyah.)
The Lord: "There is a limit to how long My Spirit will put up with such human ignorance." -
For example, Christ was pronouncing scathing judgments upon the scribes and Pharisees before launching into “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem.”
They are the ones whom He addresses as ‘Jerusalem’: the religious leaders who denied the people the means by which they could hear and learn the truth –
Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city
The fact that the leaders ‘would not’ exemplifies the unregenerate lack of will to do that which is spiritually pleasing to God….despite the number of witnesses standing before them testifying to the truth.
The Scripture you cite does not indicate ‘weeping.’ Of course, Jesus wept according to Scriptures. However, I could find no scriptural authority claiming Jesus wept during this particular discourse.
Jesus proclaimed it had been His will to evangelize and gather a people for His name, but the religious leaders would not have it.
The serious Bible student need be apprised of the significant difference between the Preceptive and Decretive wills of God.
The Preceptive will is that will of God which publicly declares the duty which men rightfully owe God and each other.
This will is countermanded every day.
This was the will which the religious leaders refused to obey.
However, the Decretive will is that secret will of God which must certainly come to pass.
Neither man nor devil can countermand this will. (e.g. Dan. 4:35)
It is that will which came to pass, as clearly seen in Acts 2 ff. when 3,000 were immediately added to the church rolls.
Election always results in saving faith, for it is most definitely decreed in His secret all-powerful Decretive will:
as many as were ordained to eternal life believed. -
Iconoclast Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
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Iconoclast Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
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Iconoclast Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
DHK cannot answer so he jumps to somewhere else.....He then tries to say I cannot believe what I do believe:laugh:
What do you believe on the 2 pet 3 passage as discussed here? -
Iconoclast Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
as an aside...men go to hell for their sin even if they do not hear of Jesus....
But I notice you were not able to respond to my two posts on 2 pet3.....because you know anything you post will be as empty as your post on eph 1 thread....that was really horrible...maybe you can edit it before anyone reads it????:laugh::laugh:...too late Reformed and AA....have jumped on that fresh error:laugh: -
This is a lament. In case you don't know what that means, Merriam-Webster says:
Jesus wasn't a conservative Westerner wearing a suit, carrying a brief case, and going to his office.
Nicodemus called him "Rabbi." This was in the first century in Israel. He lamented over the citizens of Jerusalem for he knew the destruction that was about to come upon the entire city. It would not just affect its religious leaders; it would affect all who lived there--and he had compassion on all.
--As the leaders go, so goes the city.
When Christ was crucified, it wasn't just the few that ruled; it wasn't just the Sanhedrin, and a few Roman soldiers, No. There was an entire mob crying out: "Crucify Him; Crucify Him," far more than the number of the Sanhedrin.
He allowed the religious leaders to engage him right to the end and always answered their questions. He never gave up on them.
If Calvinism was true Christ knew which ones were not the elect; he knew the wickedness of their hearts; their intent to kill him. He should have just ignored them. They were doomed to Hell anyway. But he didn't. He demonstrated his love to them--all of them.
This is demonstrated here:
Mark 10:21 Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said unto him, One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me.
This happens to unsaved man as well.
The unsaved have the responsibility of responding to God and accepting his free gift of salvation. If he rejects that gift he condemns himself to hell. That is the reason he is damned, not because it is predetermined before the foundation of the world.
Faith is faith. "Saving faith" is not found in the Bible.
Election is a term that applies to the blessings given to believers. It is not used in direct connection to salvation or damnation. -
The ‘whosoever’ includes all men without distinction of race, religion, social status, gender, nationality, etc.
Our Lord does not discriminate when it comes to saving repentant sinners.
………the timeline of which encompasses several thousands of years pertaining to tens of millions of souls.
How were they ‘saved’?
Billy Graham understood this anomaly. If God loves everyone and justly gives everyone a fair shot at salvation, how does one account a 'fair shot' given to the millions who never heard of Christ?
His answer: Salvation is possible through believing there is a God by faith in Nature.
What is your explanation?
And what of the tens of millions who never heard of Christ?
Was He not willing that they should perish?
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robustheologian Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
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