Spiritual Interpretation....pt3

Really...well we are all waiting for you to work through Rev6:12-17 then...explain when this takes place and what it is describing...without the "spiritual method"?

 

So....a meteor shower caused the heaven to roll up, like a scroll?
I have seen this attempted explanation of it being..."shooting stars"....I do not think that makes sense in light of the reaction of the men who hide in the caves and the rocks

The premill person does not believe the new covenant is for the church...
WQhen are you going to address the op?

 

Ok...as to why I now disagree and to get at the original question...why Spiritual interpretation.....the language is used that way by God;
Gen37;
5 And Joseph dreamed a dream, and he told it his brethren: and they hated him yet the more.

6 And he said unto them, Hear, I pray you, this dream which I have dreamed:

7 For, behold, we were binding sheaves in the field, and, lo, my sheaf arose, and also stood upright; and, behold, your sheaves stood round about, and made obeisance to my sheaf.

8 And his brethren said to him, Shalt thou indeed reign over us? or shalt thou indeed have dominion over us? And they hated him yet the more for his dreams, and for his words.

9 And he dreamed yet another dream, and told it his brethren, and said, Behold, I have dreamed a dream more; and, behold, the sun and the moon and the eleven stars made obeisance to me.

10 And he told it to his father, and to his brethren: and his father rebuked him, and said unto him, What is this dream that thou hast dreamed? Shall I and thy mother and thy brethren indeed come to bow down ourselves to thee to the earth?

Isa13;
6 Howl ye; for the day of the Lord is at hand; it shall come as a destruction from the Almighty.

7 Therefore shall all hands be faint, and every man's heart shall melt:

8 And they shall be afraid: pangs and sorrows shall take hold of them; they shall be in pain as a woman that travaileth: they shall be amazed one at another; their faces shall be as flames.

9 Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.

10 For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.

11 And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible.

Isaiah 34King James Version (KJV)

34 Come near, ye nations, to hear; and hearken, ye people: let the earth hear, and all that is therein; the world, and all things that come forth of it.

2 For the indignation of the Lord is upon all nations, and his fury upon all their armies: he hath utterly destroyed them, he hath delivered them to the slaughter.

3 Their slain also shall be cast out, and their stink shall come up out of their carcases, and the mountains shall be melted with their blood.

4 And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll: and all their host shall fall down, as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and as a falling fig from the fig tree.

5 For my sword shall be bathed in heaven: behold, it shall come down upon Idumea, and upon the people of my curse, to judgment.

6 The sword of the Lord is filled with blood, it is made fat with fatness, and with the blood of lambs and goats, with the fat of the kidneys of rams: for the Lord hath a sacrifice in Bozrah, and a great slaughter in the land of Idumea.

7 And the unicorns shall come down with them, and the bullocks with the bulls; and their land shall be soaked with blood, and their dust made fat with fatness.

8 For it is the day of the Lord's vengeance, and the year of recompences for the controversy of Zion.

9 And the streams thereof shall be turned into pitch, and the dust thereof into brimstone, and the land thereof shall become burning pitch.

10 It shall not be quenched night nor day; the smoke thereof shall go up for ever: from generation to generation it shall lie waste; none shall pass through it for ever and ever.

11 But the cormorant and the bittern shall possess it; the owl also and the raven shall dwell in it: and he shall stretch out upon it the line of confusion, and the stones of emptiness.

12 They shall call the nobles thereof to the kingdom, but none shall be there, and all her princes shall be nothing.
isa34

joel2;
27 And ye shall know that I am in the midst of Israel, and that I am the Lord your God, and none else: and my people shall never be ashamed.

28 And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:

29 And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit.

30 And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke.

31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and terrible day of the Lord come.

32 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the Lord hath said, and in the remnant whom the Lord shall call.

 

If you do not address the scriptures no one is going to pay attention to your posts,,,it says stars...not meteors....they are not hiding from a meteor shower... a meteor s

You are historic premill correct? I am speaking of dispensational premill. I have never seen one who says it was for gentiles...
When I had an elder in such a church announce that I was not in the NC, that hastened my departure out of that system.

Do you see the force of the language and the issue I am raising with it?

 

this is

This is not answering what is being discussed.

 

John of Japan,

yes...however...when the exact language is repeated several times I think it indicates we are to pay attention to what is being said....

In Gen37...we know what it was indicating. in Isa 13, 34 we know what it was indicating.
Do you consider what if the spiritual is exactly what God intends for us to understand? It was a change in the ruling life of the people.

But no such meteor hit the earth in isa 13, or 34, and yet Babylon and Edom
were destroyed

https://www.dbts.edu/journals/2003/Compton.pdf
There Are Two New Covenants: One for Israel and One for the Church At one time a prominent view among the Dallas Seminary faculty,12 this view argues that there is one new covenant for Israel and 1977), pp. 25–29. Ladd argues, “Therefore Hebrews 8:8–13 refutes dispensational theology at two points: It applies a prophecy to the Christian church which in its Old Testament setting referred to Israel, and it affirms that the new covenant in Christ has displaced the Old Testament cult which is therefore doomed to pass away” (pp. 26–27). 11E.g., Keith A. Mathison, Postmillennialism: An Eschatology of Hope (Phillipsburg, NJ: Presbyterian & Reformed, 1999), pp. 89–90. Mathison states: “The new covenant was inaugurated by Jesus Christ at His first coming and is being fulfilled in and through the church during this present age…. The institution of the new covenant does not await the start of the Millennium or the eternal state. Since the new covenant is the means by which God will finally and completely fulfill all previous covenant promises, and since the new covenant is specifically the covenant of the present age, these promises must be fulfilled in the present age” (p. 90). 12Principally in view here are Lewis S. Chafer, Systematic Theology, 8 vols. (Dallas: Dallas Seminary Press, 1948), 1:43; 4:314–15, 325; 7:98–99; Charles C. Ryrie, The Basis of the Premillennial Faith (Neptune, NJ: Loizeaux Brothers, 1953), pp. 115–25; and John F. Walvoord, The Millennial Kingdom (Grand Rapids: Zondervan, 1959), pp. 208–20. Both Ryrie and Walvoord have adjusted their views in subsequent writings. For example, in commenting on the new covenant in a later article, Walvoord states, “A solution to the problem then is that there is one covenant with application to Israel and to the church and to anyone saved by the death of Christ. In Scripture the application of the New covenant is explicitly to the church in the present age and to Israel as a nation in the future as far as millennial blessings are concerned” (“Does the Church Fulfill Israel’s Program?” BSac 137 [July–September 1980]: 219–20). However, in a more recent discussion Walvoord appears to return to his former position. Commenting on the references to the new covenant in the New Testament, Walvoord argues: “In the New Testament, in which the new covenant is related to the church, it is the grace of God as it applies to the church. While none of the major features of the covenant for Israel are repeated, nevertheless the church has a new covenant in contrast to her former estate in Adam, just as Israel has a new covenant in contrast to her former position under the Mosaic covenant…. There is no evidence that the church is ever regarded as fulfilling the many details of the new covenant in the Old Testament relating to Israel” (“The New Covenant,” in Integrity of Heart, Skillfulness of Hands: Biblical and Leadership Studies in Honor of Donald K. Campbell, ed. Charles H. Dyer and Roy B. Zuck [Grand Rapids: Baker, 1994], pp. 198–99). Ryrie has followed a similar pattern. In a later article he argues for one new
ael. Other New Testament passages speak of a second new covenant for the church which, although having some similarities, is separate and distinct from the new covenant for Israel.13 The new covenant for Israel will be fulfilled by Israel in the eschaton; the second new covenant is presently being fulfilled by the church.14
The New Covenant is Exclusively for Israel and Will be Fulfilled by Israel in the Future A view popular among early dispensationalists15 and still found today16 is that the new covenant is exclusively for Israel. Since Israel is covenant in which the church presently participates in a limited fashion and which national Israel fulfills in the eschaton (Wycliffe Bible Encyclopedia, s.v. “Covenant, New,” by Charles C. Ryrie, 1:392). However, in a more recent discussion Ryrie offers two separate new covenants, one for Israel and one for the church, as a viable option (Dispensationalism, pp. 172–74). 13Of the NT passages that address the new covenant, both Ryrie and Walvoord identify Rom 11:26–27; Heb 8:7–13; 10:16–17 as referring to the new covenant for Israel; the other references in the NT address the new covenant for the church (Ryrie, The Basis of the Premillennial Faith, pp. 119–24; Walvoord, The Millennial Kingdom, pp. 213–18). 14Commenting on the new covenant in Jer 31:31–34, Chafer notes: “There remains to be recognized a heavenly covenant for the heavenly people, which is also styled like the preceding one for Israel a ‘new covenant.’ It is made in the blood of Christ (cf. Mark 14:24) and continues in effect throughout this age, whereas the new covenant made with Israel happens to be future in its application. To suppose that these two covenants—one for Israel and one for the Church—are the same is to assume that there is a latitude of common interest between God’s purpose for Israel and His purpose for the Church. Israel’s covenant, however, is new only because it replaces the Mosaic, but the Church’s covenant is new because it introduces that which is God’s mysterious and unrelated purpose” (Systematic Theology, 7:98–99). 15E.g., J. N. Darby, Synopsis of the Books of the Bible, 5 vols. (reprint ed., New York: Loizeaux, 1942), 5:330. In his discussion on Heb 8:7–13, Darby states, “We enjoy indeed all the essential privileges of the new covenant, its foundation being laid on God’s part in the blood of Christ, but we do so in spirit, not according to the letter. The new covenant will be established formally with Israel in the millennium.” Commenting on Heb 9:15, Darby adds, “The way in which the apostle always avoids the direct application of the new covenant is very striking” (5:340). Similarly, on Heb 10:15–17 Darby says, “He does not speak of the covenant in a direct way, as a privilege in which Christians had a direct part” (5:360). 16E.g., John R. Master, “The New Covenant,” in Issues in Dispensationalism, ed. Wesley R. Willis and John R. Master (Chicago: Moody Press, 1994), p. 108. Similarly, Russell L. Penney, “The Relationship of the Church to the New Covenant,” The Conservative Theological Journal 2 (December 1998): 476–77. Penney specifically notes his agreement with Darby’s position (p. 476).
8 Detroit Baptist Seminary Journal
the specific designee of the new covenant in the Old Testament, the new covenant provisions will be fulfilled by Israel in the eschaton. Whatever benefits the church presently enjoys that are associated with the new covenant stem not from a direct relationship to the new covenant, but indirectly through the church’s relationship to the mediator of the new covenant, that is, through Jesus Christ.17

have a nice weekend

 

Okay...I just put up one link so far...to the historic premill view....other views are offered...it is a useful link.