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Spiritual Interpretation....pt3

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Iconoclast, Apr 17, 2017.

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  1. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    In our last episode the Premillenialist brethren were found suggesting that the word generation no longer means generation....lol.
    We noticed also no attempt was made by Premillenialist interpreters to work though Rev 6:12-17...before pt2 was closed.
    Let's deal with this section of scripture and texts directly related to this.
    Support your statement with scripture.
     
  2. Jope

    Jope Member
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    In our last episode iconoclast was found claiming that logical fallacies were the correct route to take and lo, nothing has changed!

    You will search in vain for said allegation: tell us which post has a premillennialist suggest that generation doesn't mean generation.



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  3. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    Your foul off topic post is rejected. Address the OP.
     
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  4. Jope

    Jope Member
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  5. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    Your rhetoric reminds me of something. Yes I know what it reminds me of an anal sphincter. Not that I'm saying that's characteristic of you at all but of your posts..
    That was how you played the game in the last thread so I thought I'd try it out.
    you've been asked to address theOP. as you were asked in the last thread.
     
  6. Jope

    Jope Member
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    That's the name of the game.

    Please refrain from personal attacks in the public forum

    Now I'd like to see you prove how my posts remind you of an anal sphincter.


    The op states that a premillennialist here on this forum claims that generation does not mean generation. I asked for you to prove this.

    Now it's your turn: prove that I have veered from the op.



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  7. Jope

    Jope Member
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    Another false claim. I made an attempt by telling you that I would answer what a premillennialist interpretation is of said passage when you defined what a presupposition is, and you still haven't given us the definition. The ball is in your court, quit claiming that you're a victim to neglect.



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  8. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    Oh no....you misunderstood.....I was not speaking of you personally,you know,like you were.not speaking of me in the other thread...no...not at all
    Your posts were suggesting things and forming an impression in my mind.

    Now this thread is about rev6:12-17.....if you cannot comment on the whole passage.....leave. I am not interested in your rude manner of attacking Martin, or Ian, or anyone else. You have shown yourself to be not credible.
    So....comment on the passage in question, or leave to do your trolling somewhere else.
     
  9. Covenanter

    Covenanter Active Member
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    From part 2:
    That shows serious misreading of my posts. Keep to the CONTEXT and the Greek. You would find it instructive to study the Hebrew word translated "generation."

    Did you take advantage of the "Babylon Bee" course in Ad hominen arguments?


    I addressed this to @John of Japan but the thread was closed before he answered:
     
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  10. Covenanter

    Covenanter Active Member
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    From part 2:
    Ian - Covenanter - In his Olivet prophecy, in 3 Gospels, Jesus makes it clear that the destruction will take place in the lifetime of "this generation." Clearly AD 70 is intended. He proceeds to prophesy the passing of heaven & earth at a time unknown.

    The destruction took place exactly as prophesied. We are presently waiting for the coming of our Saviour for resurrection & judgment - and the passing away of heaven & earth. Watch & pray ...


    Ian - Covenanter -
    Those events did happen in the first century - but did not then cease. Jesus said they were not specifically signs of the coming destruction -
    Luke 21:7 So they asked Him, saying, “Teacher, but when will these things be? And what sign will there be when these things are about to take place?”

    8 And He said: “Take heed that you not be deceived. For many will come in My name, saying, ‘I am He,’ and, ‘The time has drawn near.’ Therefore do not go after them. 9 But when you hear of wars and commotions, do not be terrified; for these things must come to pass first, but the end will not come immediately.”


    He did go on to give specific signs at which they should flee the city:
    20 “But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near. 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her. 22 For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.


    Ian - Covenanter -
    Literal earthquakes are recorded in Acts, & the Gospels at the crucifixion. We haven'd got an inspired account of the destruction - the believers didn't stay in the city to check the prophetic details.


    Ian - Covenanter -
    These things have continued down the ages. They are signs that the earth is living under the threat of destruction, but not of its imminence.


    Ian - Covenanter -
    They recognised "the great day of his wrath," too late! Jesus warned the women that their children would suffer -
    Luke 23:“Daughters of Jerusalem, do not weep for Me, but weep for yourselves and for your children. 29 For indeed the days are coming in which they will say, ‘Blessed are the barren, wombs that never bore, and breasts which never nursed!’ 30 Then they will begin ‘to say to the mountains, “Fall on us!” and to the hills, “Cover us!”’ 31 For if they do these things in the green wood, what will be done in the dry?”
    Those children, in their 40s, having refused to repent, would cry in terror when they realised they were facing the wrath of the Lamb whose Gospel of peace they had despised. Rev. 6 echoes that cry. Isaiah had previously given a similar warning to rebellious Jerusalem.

    It is of course likely that when Jesus returns people will again cry in such terror.
     
  11. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    So have I:

    "....That particular generation of Christ's day was a peculiar generation in that it had been foretold of through prophecy such as the Song of Moses [Dt 31:16 - Dt 32], which also is quoted from several times in the NT. Only minutes earlier in the temple had Christ prophesied again concerning that particular generation:

    33 Ye serpents, ye offspring of vipers, how shall ye escape the judgment of hell?
    34 Therefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: some of them shall ye kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute from city to city:
    35 that upon you may come all the righteous blood shed on the earth, from the blood of Abel the righteous unto the blood of Zachariah son of Barachiah, whom ye slew between the sanctuary and the altar.
    36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.
    37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, that killeth the prophets, and stoneth them that are sent unto her! how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
    38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate. Mt 23

    Christ is still referring to that particular generation in the Olivet Discourse.

    The 'preunderstanding of the Modern Linguistics school' that you are again demonstrating complicates and disconnects, and in this instance destroys the underlying continuity of the scriptures concerning that very wicked generation. They're called serpents and offspring of vipers by Christ and John the Baptist and specifically singled out by Moses some 1400 years earlier where he plainly states “they are not His children”:

    21 And it shall come to pass, when many evils and troubles are come upon them, that this song shall testify before them as a witness; for it shall not be forgotten out of the mouths of their seed: for I know their imagination which they frame this day, before I have brought them into the land which I sware.
    22 So Moses wrote this song the same day, and taught it the children of Israel.
    29 For I know that after my death ye will utterly corrupt yourselves, and turn aside from the way which I have commanded you; and evil will befall you in the latter days; because ye will do that which is evil in the sight of Jehovah, to provoke him to anger through the work of your hands. Dt 31
    5 They have dealt corruptly with him, they are not his children, it is their blemish; They are a perverse and crooked generation.
    20 And he said, I will hide my face from them, I will see what their end shall be: For they are a very perverse generation, Children in whom is no faithfulness.
    21 They have moved me to jealousy with that which is not God; They have provoked me to anger with their vanities: And I will move them to jealousy with those that are not a people; I will provoke them to anger with a foolish nation. Dt 32

    8 Then certain of the scribes and Pharisees answered him, saying, Teacher, we would see a sign from thee.
    39 But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given it but the sign of Jonah the prophet:
    40 for as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the whale; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
    41 The men of Nineveh shall stand up in the judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: for they repented at the preaching of Jonah; and behold, a greater than Jonah is here.
    42 The queen of the south shall rise up in the judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: for she came from the ends of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and behold, a greater than Solomon is here.
    43 But the unclean spirit, when he is gone out of the man, passeth through waterless places, seeking rest, and findeth it not.
    44 Then he saith, I will return into my house whence I came out; and when he is come, he findeth it empty, swept, and garnished.
    45 Then goeth he, and taketh with himself seven other spirits more evil than himself, and they enter in and dwell there: and the last state of that man becometh worse than the first. Even so shall it be also unto this evil generation. Mt 12

    1 And the Pharisees and Sadducees came, and trying him asked him to show them a sign from heaven.
    2 But he answered and said unto them, When it is evening, ye say, It will be fair weather: for the heaven is red.
    3 And in the morning, It will be foul weather to-day: for the heaven is red and lowering. Ye know how to discern the face of the heaven; but ye cannot discern the signs of the times.
    4 An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given unto it, but the sign of Jonah. And he left them, and departed. Mt 16

    24 for as the lightning, when it lighteneth out of the one part under the heaven, shineth unto the other part under heaven; so shall the Son of man be in his day.
    25 But first must he suffer many things and be rejected of this generation. Lu 17

    22 For these are days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
    23 Woe unto them that are with child and to them that give suck in those days! for there shall be great distress upon the land, and wrath unto this people.
    24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led captive into all the nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
    32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all things be accomplished. Lk 21

    16 But whereunto shall I liken this generation? It is like unto children sitting in the marketplaces, who call unto their fellows
    17 and say, We piped unto you, and ye did not dance; we wailed, and ye did not mourn.
    18 For John came neither eating nor drinking, and they say, He hath a demon.
    19 The Son of man came eating and drinking, and they say, Behold, a gluttonous man and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners! And wisdom is justified by her works. Mt 11

    40 And with many other words he testified, and exhorted them, saying, Save yourselves from this crooked generation. Acts 2

    And Josephus certainly had nothing good to say of 'that generation':

    “It is therefore impossible to go distinctly over every instance of these men's iniquity. I shall therefore speak my mind here at once briefly: - That neither did any other city ever suffer such miseries, nor did any age ever breed a generation more fruitful in wickedness than this was, from the beginning of the world.....” Book 5, ch 10, sec. 5

    “.. I suppose, that had the Romans made any longer delay in coming against these villains, that the city would either have been swallowed up by the ground opening upon them, or been overflowed by water, or else been destroyed by such thunder as the country of Sodom (20) perished by, for it had brought forth a generation of men much more atheistical than were those that suffered such punishments; for by their madness it was that all the people came to be destroyed....” Book 5, ch. 13, sec. 6

    “....and I cannot but think that it was because God had doomed this city to destruction, as a polluted city, and was resolved to purge his sanctuary by fire, that he cut off these their great defenders and well-wishers, while those that a little before had worn the sacred garments, and had presided over the public worship; and had been esteemed venerable by those that dwelt on the whole habitable earth when they came into our city, were cast out naked, and seen to be the food of dogs and wild beasts. And I cannot but imagine that virtue itself groaned at these men's case, and lamented that she was here so terribly conquered by wickedness.....” Book 4, ch. 5, sec. 2..."
     
    #11 kyredneck, Apr 18, 2017
    Last edited: Apr 18, 2017
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  12. Covenanter

    Covenanter Active Member
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    I understand now.

    Let's substitute "race" for "generation."

    Mat. 1:17 So all the races from Abraham to David are fourteen races, from David until the captivity in Babylon are fourteen races, and from the captivity in Babylon until the Christ are fourteen races.

    11:16 But whereunto shall I liken this race? It is like unto children sitting in the markets, and calling unto their fellows,

    12:39 But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous race seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas:

    12:41 The men of Nineveh shall rise in judgment with this race and shall condemn it: because they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here.

    16:4 A wicked and adulterous race seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given unto it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas. And he left them, and departed.

    17:17 Then Jesus answered and said, O faithless and perverse race how long shall I be with you? how long shall I suffer you? bring him hither to me.

    23:36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this race.

    24:34 Verily I say unto you, This race shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

    Can it possibly be argued that "race" is a more accurate translation than "generation" ?

    If "race" were intended, the whole Jewish race is being condemned by their Messiah. NO! NO! NO! Jesus is addressing or referring to those who rejected him.

    Move forward to Rev. 6, where Jesus is opening the seals.

    Is the vision concerned with the fulfilment of Jesus' Olivet prophecy against "this generation" aka "this race";
    or distant end times of no particular concern to living Christians of John's time or even of the time leading up to the supposed "rapture";
    or living Christians during the whole millennium between Calvary & Jesus' final coming for resurrection & judgement?

    It is a very specific prophecy. If we remember that Revelation begins with chapter 1 & is addressed to its immediate readers - companions in tribulation - then we should expect an immediate fulfilment of the prophecy.

    Those under the altar (seal 5) were only told to rest a little longer, not for a millennium or two. We should therefore consider AD 70 as the most likely interpretation.

    Jesus, the Lion-Lamb has triumphed - we wear his Nike badge on our sports shirts & trainers and he opens the seals one by one as a sort of "picture-book" of God's plan of action.

    Obvious Jesus himself is the primary character - the victorious white horse rider. The concept of four horsemen/chariots is seen in Zechariah 1 & 6. They are God's angelic agents sent into the world to survey & report back.

    And their action is directed against the ge - the earth or the land of Israel.

    We need to note the scope of their action:
    8 So I looked, and behold, a pale horse. And the name of him who sat on it was Death, and Hades followed with him. And power was given to them over a fourth of the earth, to kill with sword, with hunger, with death, and by the beasts of the earth.

    We read of a similar warning in Ezekiel:
    14:21 For thus says the Lord God: “How much more it shall be when I send My four severe judgments on Jerusalem—the sword and famine and wild beasts and pestilence—to cut off man and beast from it? 22 Yet behold, there shall be left in it a remnant who will be brought out, both sons and daughters; surely they will come out to you, and you will see their ways and their doings. Then you will be comforted concerning the disaster that I have brought upon Jerusalem, all that I have brought upon it. 23 And they will comfort you, when you see their ways and their doings; and you shall know that I have done nothing without cause that I have done in it,” says the Lord God.

    Ezekiel assures his readers that a remnant will be brought out - compare that with seal 5 & the 144,000.

    Added -
    The earth? Or the land of Israel?
    The scale of the slaughter - one fourth - is consistent with the AD 70 destruction - a very violent local slaughter.
     
    #12 Covenanter, Apr 18, 2017
    Last edited: Apr 18, 2017
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  13. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    Some more:

    29 And when the multitudes were gathering together unto him, he began to say, This race is an evil race: it seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it but the sign of Jonah.
    50 that the blood of all the prophets, which was shed from the foundation of the world, may be required of this race;
    51 from the blood of Abel unto the blood of Zachariah, who perished between the altar and the sanctuary: yea, I say unto you, it shall be required of this race. Lu 11

    40 And with many other words he testified, and exhorted them, saying, Save yourselves from this crooked race. Acts 2

    10 Wherefore I was displeased with this race, And said, They do always err in their heart: But they did not know my ways; Heb 3

    Four years ago JoJ was suggesting 'genea' really meant 'age' or 'era'. Now he's saying it means 'race'?
     
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  14. John of Japan

    John of Japan Well-Known Member
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    No, no, no. You missed it entirely. I was not suggesting anything, I was declaring as a linguist and Bible translator that the Greek word genea is polysemous, and therefore that "race" is a possible translation in Matt. 24:24. I was dealing with the original Greek, not saying that the English word "generation" does not mean "generation."

    So, if you want to rebut my statement, please show that the possible translations of "race" and "era" (which I did not mention on the previous thread) are not valid renderings. Otherwise, once again you amil/preterist types have no answer, so why should I participate in this thread?
     
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  15. Covenanter

    Covenanter Active Member
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    Obviously JoJ is teaching that God is holding the whole Abrahamic race accountable for the sins of the generation that rejected its Messiah.

    I hope his students are more attentive to Scripture than they are to their teacher.
     
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  16. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    How's a question for an answer? Are there ANY translations that actually render 'genea' as 'age' or 'era' or 'race'?

    If anyone should know it'd be you, and I'm pretty sure that if you knew of such a translation you would have already brought it up.

    (JoJ has me on ignore so someone else may have to ask this if they're wanting an answer from him)
     
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  17. Covenanter

    Covenanter Active Member
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    You ask "why should I participate in this thread?"

    Because you are becoming discredited as a Bible teacher by your concern to reject the plain meaning of Scripture by your semantics.

    You appear to be a slave to your presuppositions.
     
  18. TCassidy

    TCassidy Administrator
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    Please refrain from personal attacks.
     
  19. TCassidy

    TCassidy Administrator
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    No, he is not. Please refrain from personal attacks.
    We all approach the scriptures with presuppositions firmly in place.

    The question is, "which presuppositions are the better presuppositions?"
     
  20. TCassidy

    TCassidy Administrator
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    NAS Exhaustive Concordance
    Word Origin
    from ginomai
    Definition
    race, family, generation

    Thayer's Greek Lexicon
    γενεά

    γενεά, γενεάς, ἡ (ΓΑΝΩ, γίνομαι (crf. Curtius, p. 610)); the Sept. often for דּור; in Greek writings from Homer down;

    1. a begetting, birth, nativity: Herodotus 3, 33; Xenophon, Cyril 1, 2, 8, etc.; (others make the collective sense the primary significance, see Curtius as above).

    2. passively, that which has been begotten, men of the same stock, a family;

    a. properly, as early as Homer; equivalent to מִשְׁפָּחַה, Genesis 31:3, etc. σῴζειν Ρ᾽αχαβην καί τήν γενεάν αὐτῆς, Josephus, Antiquities 5, 1, 5. the several ranks in a natural descent, the successive members of a genealogy: Matthew 1:17 (ἑβδόμῃ γενεά οὗτος ἐστιν ἀπό τοῦ πρώτου, Philo, vit. Moys. i. § 2).

    b. metaphorically, a race of men very like each other in endowments, pursuits, character; and especially in a bad sense a perverse race: Matthew 17:17; Mark 9:19; Luke 9:41; Luke 16:8; (Acts 2:40).

    3. the whole multitude of men living at the same time: Matthew 24:34; Mark 13:30; Luke 1:48 (πᾶσαι αἱ γενεαί); ; Philippians 2:15; used especially of the Jewish race living at one and the same period: Matthew 11:16; Matthew 12:39, 41f, 45; Matthew 16:4; Matthew 23:36; Mark 8:12, 38; Luke 11:29f, 32, 50; Luke 17:25; Acts 13:36; Hebrews 3:10; ἄνθρωποι τῆς γενεάς ταύτης, Luke 7:31; ἄνδρες τῆς γενεάς ταύτης, Luke 11:31; τήν δέ γενεάν αὐτοῦ τίς διηγήσεται, who can describe the wickedness of the present generation, Acts 8:33 (from Isaiah 53:8 the Sept.) (but cf. Meyer, at the passage).

    4. an age (i. e. the time ordinarily occupied by each successive generation), the space of from 30 to 33 years (Herodotus 2, 142, et al.; Heraclitus in Plutarch, def. orac. c. 11), or ὁ χρόνος, ἐν ᾧ γεννωντα παρέχει τόν ἐξ αὐτοῦ γεγεννημένον ὁ γεννησας (Plutarch, the passage cited); in the N. T. common in plural: Ephesians 3:5 (Winers Grammar, § 31, 9 a.; Buttmann, 186 (161)); παρῳχημέναις γενεαῖς in ages gone by, Acts 14:16; ἀπό τῶν γενεῶν for ages, since the generations began, Colossians 1:26; ἐκ γενεῶν ἀρχαίων from the generations of old, from ancient times down, Acts 15:21; εἰς γενεάς γενεῶν unto generations of generations, through all ages, forever (a phrase which assumes that the longer ages are made up of shorter; see αἰών, 1 a.): Luke 1:50 R L (דּורִים לְדור, Isaiah 51:8); εἰς γενεάς καί γενεάς unto generations and generations, ibid. T Tr WH equivalent to וָדור לְדור, Psalm 89:2; Isaiah 34:17; very often in the Sept.; (add, εἰς πάσας τάς γενεάς τοῦ αἰῶνος τῶν αἰώνων, Ephesians 3:21, cf. Ellicott at the passage) (γενεά is used of a century in Genesis 15:16, cf. Knobel at the passage, and on the senses of the word see the full remarks of Keim, iii. 206 (v. 245 English translation)).
     
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