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Featured Spiritual Israel, Christian Israel.....instead of Replacement Theology

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Iconoclast, Jan 14, 2018.

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  1. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    Progressive dispensationalists deny that the earthly millennial kingdom has already begun, despite their view that Jesus is on the Davidic throne now

    you do not believe this.

    This is a result of seeing a diversity of meaning in the words “Davidic throne” and the word “kingdom.” Progressive dispensationalists argue that classical dispensationalism tends to view the kingdom in an exclusively futuristic, material way, even when that meaning may not be the “clear and plain” reading of the text. The New Testament presents Jesus’ present position and activity as a fulfillment of promises of the Davidic covenant. This [view] has been necessary because earlier forms of dispensationalism tended to deny it. They were concerned to underscore the future fulfillment of the political and earthly aspects of the Davidic promise as that promise interfaces with the political and earthly promises of other covenants. We need to note that the New Testament does indicate that the political aspects of Jesus’ Davidic kingship will be fulfilled in the future. But earlier dispensationalists tended to miss the fact that in biblical theology, the Davidic nature of Christ’s present activity guarantees the fulfillment of all of the Davidic promise in the future, including the national and political dimensions of that promise.58 Saucy shares the belief that Jesus fulfilled the promise of a Davidic King. Based on the phrase “the right hand of God” in Psalm 110:1 and Peter’s interpretation of it in Acts 2:33 Saucy says the Davidic throne is this “symbol of authority.”59 However, he cautions, “We must be careful not to read more into this inauguration [of Jesus as the Davidic king at His first coming] than what is actually said. . . . The fact that Christ has this position of kingly authority in heaven, therefore, in no way denies that he will have this same position when he returns to establish his kingdom on earth.”60 This alludes to the reason for progressive dispensational theology’s shift in interpretation.

    This does not seem much different from much of what we are posting
     
  2. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    Strimple bases his view that Christ is the true Israel on the following biblical arguments:

    1). Isaiah’s servant songs have a double referent that has long baffled Jewish commentators. On the one hand, they refer to Israel, God’s chosen one and servant (41:8-9; 44:1-2, 21; 45:4; 49:3). On the other, they seem also to refer to some individual (42:1-4). These prophesies are interpreted by the New Testament as referring to Christ (Matthew 8:17 and Acts 8:30-35)

    2). Matthew sees a double referent in Hosea 11:1, ("Out of Egypt I called my son")
     
  3. Covenanter

    Covenanter Well-Known Member
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    Some OT covenants are unconditional, some conditional.

    The Gen. 12 covenant promise to Abram concerned him - his seed, Christ, & was unconditional, with a promise to all families of earth. All with faith in Christ inherit that covenant. Gen. 3.

    The Mosaic was conditional - notice the IF clause:
    Exo. 19:3 And Moses went up to God, and the Lord called to him from the mountain, saying, “Thus you shall say to the house of Jacob, and tell the children of Israel: 4 ‘You have seen what I did to the Egyptians, and how I bore you on eagles’ wings and brought you to Myself. 5 Now therefore, if you will indeed obey My voice and keep My covenant, then you shall be a special treasure to Me above all people; for all the earth is Mine. 6 And you shall be to Me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.’ These are the words which you shall speak to the children of Israel.”

    Of course God knew he was asking the impossible, so he provided a sacrificial system, confirming the covenant by a blood sacrifice:
    24:7 Then he took the Book of the Covenant and read in the hearing of the people. And they said, “All that the Lord has said we will do, and be obedient.” 8 And Moses took the blood, sprinkled it on the people, and said, “This is the blood of the covenant which the Lord has made with you according to all these words.”

    And of course that prefigured Christ & Calvary. See Heb. 9. Peter takes up Exodus 19 & applies it, & other OC promises, to the church of mixed Jewish & Gentile believers:
    1 Pet. 2:8 ... They stumble, being disobedient to the word, to which they also were appointed.
    9 But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light; 10 who once were not a people but are now the people of God, who had not obtained mercy but now have obtained mercy

    The eternal throne promised to David's son was in fact the throne of the LORD:
    1 Chr. 29:23 Then Solomon sat on the throne of the LORD as king instead of David his father,

    Old Covenant prophecy demands the NC fulfilment in & by the LORD Jesus Christ. There is just no place for a earthly physical future millennium with a return to the OC types, temple & sacrifices.

    The PEOPLE of Israel, not an earthly nation, including all nations inherit the glorious OC covenant promises by faith IN CHRIST. We read it in Acts as believing Israelites from every nation under heaven formed the NC Church.
     
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  4. prophecy70

    prophecy70 Active Member

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    Joshua 21:43
    So the LORD gave Israel all the land he had sworn to give their ancestors, and they took possession of it and settled there.

    Neh. 9:8
    "You found his heart faithful before You, And made a covenant with him To give him the land of the Canaanite, Of the Hittite and the Amorite, Of the Perizzite, the Jebusite and the Girgashite-- To give it to his descendants. And You have fulfilled Your promise, For You are righteous.

    1 Kings 4:21 Now Solomon ruled over all the kingdoms from the [Euphrates] River to the land of the Philistines and to the border of Egypt; they brought tribute and served Solomon


    Also
    He did fulfill his promise until they broke it.
     
    #84 prophecy70, Jan 19, 2018
    Last edited: Jan 19, 2018
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  5. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    Excellent post P. He ALWAYS fulfills His promises:

    43 So Jehovah gave unto Israel all the land which he sware to give unto their fathers; and they possessed it, and dwelt therein.
    44 And Jehovah gave them rest round about, according to all that he sware unto their fathers: and there stood not a man of all their enemies before them; Jehovah delivered all their enemies into their hand.
    45 There failed not aught of any good thing which Jehovah had spoken unto the house of Israel; all came to pass. Josh 21


    And, behold, this day I am going the way of all the earth: and ye know in all your hearts and in all your souls, that not one thing hath failed of all the good things which Jehovah your God spake concerning you; all are come to pass unto you, not one thing hath failed thereof. Josh 23:14


    Blessed be Jehovah, that hath given rest unto his people Israel, according to all that he promised: there hath not failed one word of all his good promise, which he promised by Moses his servant. 1 Ki 8:56


    For how many soever be the promises of God, in him is the yea: wherefore also through him is the Amen, unto the glory of God through us. 2 Cor 1:20
     
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  6. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    I'm pretty sure that the Mosaic Covenant was the only covenant that was conditional in the sense of a two-way agreement between God and man:

    8 And all the people answered together, and said, All that Jehovah hath spoken we will do. And Moses reported the words of the people unto Jehovah. Ex 19

    ...eerily similar to the end of the Mosaic Covenant:

    25 And all the people answered and said, His blood be on us, and on our children. Mt 27

    ....and on that same day:

    51 And behold, the veil of the temple was rent in two from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake; and the rocks were rent; Mt 27
     
    #86 kyredneck, Jan 19, 2018
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  7. prophecy70

    prophecy70 Active Member

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    I was reading Thomas Ice's dispensational response to Joshua 21:43. Where he goes into great detail how it does not mean what says.

    The interesting part is the quote he puts on the page by Ladd.

    It is doubtful if there has been any other circle of men [dispensationalists] who have done more by their influence in preaching, teaching and writing to promote a love for Bible study, a hunger for the deeper Christian life, a passion for evangelism and zeal for missions in the history of American Christianity.


    -Dispensationalist Critic, George E. Ladd

    Then to read what he says about Covenant theologians, Irritates me.

    This explains why anti-Zionists evangelicals have abandoned the normal, literal interpretative approach of Scripture and are guilty of reading back into the text their a priori replacement theology. They have exchanged proper exegesis of Holy Writ for a false theologizing. In the process of developing their anti-Zionist doctrines, their rhetoric is increasingly sounding like Muslim Arabs who call themselves Palestinians.

    -Dispensationalist Thomas Ice.





     
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  8. John of Japan

    John of Japan Well-Known Member
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    You do not exegete one passage by simply listing a bunch of others. JoJ's pet peeve: long lists of verses that supposedly prove something without exegesis. :rolleyes:
     
  9. prophecy70

    prophecy70 Active Member

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    I actually read the response to it by Ice.
    Is my Anti-Zionism blinding me in failing to see it his way? ;)
     
  10. John of Japan

    John of Japan Well-Known Member
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    Why would that bother you? You don't hold to covenant theology, do you?
     
  11. John of Japan

    John of Japan Well-Known Member
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    The response to what by Ice??
     
  12. prophecy70

    prophecy70 Active Member

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    I never labeled my beliefs because I never knew anything other than dispensational pre trib-mill existed.
    So I do not know what to name it. But its what everyone else has been saying here.

    I thought you quoted the Joshua 21:43 post, I get excited sometimes and post to quick. Sorry. I read the response to that.
     
  13. prophecy70

    prophecy70 Active Member

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    What is Tcass view on each? He said he was not dispensational, so how does he view Israel and the Church? Is there more views? Is it the same as Ladd's view?
     
  14. Reformed

    Reformed Well-Known Member
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    Correct. The Mosaic Covenant (which is the Old Covenant) contained blessing and cursing (Deu. 27 & 28) based on whether the nation of Israel would obey the Law. The covenant made with Abraham was based on faith, a faith that would not fail. We see the true seed of Abraham in Romans 4.

    Romans 4:13 For the promise to Abraham or to his descendants that he would be heir of the world was not through the Law, but through the righteousness of faith.

    So, all Israel will be saved, the Israel of the like faith of Abraham.

    Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk
     
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  15. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
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    Correct!
    Gen 9:11(Noahic). Thus I establish My covenant with you: Never again shall all flesh be cut off by the waters of the flood.”

    Gen 12:2 (Abrahamic). I will make you a great nation; I will bless you and make your name great; and you shall be a blessing……….And in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed.”

    1Chron 17:11 (Davidic). “And it shall be, when your days are fulfilled, when you must go to be with your fathers, that I will set up your seed after you, who will be one of your sons; and I will establish his kingdom.”

    Exod 19:5 (Sinaitic). “Now therefore if you will indeed obey My voice and keep My covenant, then you shall be a special treasure to Me above all people.”

    The “I will” of the covenants of promise contrasts with the “if you will” of the Sinaitic. Note also the “He will” when the New Covenant is announced.

    Matt 1:21. “…..And you shall call His name Jesus for He will save His people from their sins.”

    Luke 1:32. He will be great and will be called the Son of the Highest; and the Lord God will give Him the throne of His father, David.”

    ‘For all the promises of God In Him are Yes, and in Him, Amen, to the glory of God’ (2Cor 1:20). The covenants of promise are fulfilled in Christ.

    [From my blog: The Covenants, Part V. The Sinaitic (Mosaic) Covenant
     
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  16. John of Japan

    John of Japan Well-Known Member
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    He's historic premil, as was Ladd, John R. Rice, etc.. Other than that, you'll have to ask him.
     
  17. Reformed

    Reformed Well-Known Member
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    Ad fontes. :)

    Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk
     
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  18. John of Japan

    John of Japan Well-Known Member
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    No one has actually touted covenant theology except maybe Reformed, who I suspect may be the only one of the dispensational opponents here who knows what it is intimately. For most BB posters who are amil or postmil, I see a hodgepodge of beliefs that no systematic theologian I know of has put forth.
     
  19. prophecy70

    prophecy70 Active Member

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    This is what I believe.
     
  20. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
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    This explains why anti-Zionists evangelicals have abandoned the normal, literal interpretative approach of Scripture and are guilty of reading back into the text their a priori replacement theology. They have exchanged proper exegesis of Holy Writ for a false theologizing. In the process of developing their anti-Zionist doctrines, their rhetoric is increasingly sounding like Muslim Arabs who call themselves Palestinians.

    -Dispensationalist Thomas Ice.

    Nothing there about Covenant Theology either. Just a blanket smear on anyone who disagrees with him.
     
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