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Featured Spiritual Israel, Christian Israel.....instead of Replacement Theology

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Iconoclast, Jan 14, 2018.

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  1. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    From Kit Culver; Sermon notes
    1. Again, God’s covenant relationship with Abraham was the basis of Israel’s election and consecration as His first-born son (cf. Exodus 4:22 and Hosea 11:1 with Isaiah 1:1-4; 30:1-17, etc.). Israel’s covenant sonship was determined and ordered by Abraham’s unique covenant status and God’s purpose that global restoration and reconciliation – in the language of the Abrahamic Covenant, all the earth’s families entering into His blessing – were to come through Abraham’s offspring. Israel was that covenant “seed” in corporate form, and this covenant status established the nation’s unique identity and role with respect to Yahweh, itself, and the world of men.

    By divine design, Israel was the focal point in God’s accomplishment of His eternal purpose for His creation. So Israel was obligated to be Israel – the human entity that had prevailed with God (Genesis 32:24-28) and, from its unique vantage point and privilege as son of God, was to mediate the knowledge of Him to the world of men alienated from Him. But Israel failed perpetually in its covenant responsibility, though Yahweh showed Himself lavish and constant in His commitment to love and provide for His covenant son. From Egypt onward Israel’s Father had done everything to ensure its fruitfulness, but all to no avail. Israel would not and could not be Israel, and this brought two crucial consequences:
    a. First, God divided the Israelite kingdom – the kingdom promised to Abraham and realized under David, thereby initiating its inexorable decline toward ruination. Both sub-kingdoms (Israel and Judah) were destined for destruction and exile; though Yahweh continued to plead for His son’s repentance, desolation was inevitable.
    Replicating the plight of their forefathers (Hosea 11:1-5), both houses of Israel were doomed for exile and captivity outside the covenant land.


    b. Second, Israel’s failure – considered from the perspective of the divine oath to Abraham – resulted in Yahweh’s appointment of a new Israel (Isaiah 49:1-6). Failed Israel would give birth to a faithful counterpart: a singular seed of Abraham in whom Yahweh would fulfill His purpose of global restoration and reconciliation. Thus, while God promised the recovery of a Judean remnant from exile and the rebuilding of the holy city and its sanctuary, this temporal restoration only prefigured and affirmed the true restoration to come:

    the purging and restoration of all things when the Son of David came and established His everlasting kingdom (cf. Isaiah 44:24-28:7; Jeremiah 29:1-14, 30:1-33:26; Daniel 7:1-14; Hosea 1:1-3:5; Haggai 2:1-9; Zechariah 6:9-15; Malachi 3:1-5).

    a. First of all, Israel would fulfill its calling by giving birth to the promised seed of Abraham – the true Israel in whom Israel was to realize its own identity, fullness and destiny (cf. Genesis 3:15, 49:8-10 with Psalm 14; Isaiah 49:1ff; Micah 5:2; John 4:22; Revelation 12:1-5; cf. also Galatians 4:4). b. Jesus Christ is the True Israel and Son of Abraham, but He is accomplishing His work of mediating His Father’s blessing to all the nations through the Abrahamic nation of Israel. He is doing so in two ways, one positive and one negative. - The positive means is through believing Israel – that is Jesus’ Jewish disciples to whom He entrusted the gospel of the kingdom and who became the foundation of the composite Church (Matthew 28:18-20; John 15:26-27; Acts 1:1-8, 2:1-47; Ephesians 2:19-20). - So the negative means is through unbelieving Israel. It was precisely Jewish rejection and hostility that God determined to use as the primary initial instrument for moving His gospel outward to the nations. Thus even Israel’s obstinate refusal to embrace its covenant sonship couldn’t keep it from fulfilling its divine calling to be Yahweh’s agent in bringing His blessing to all of the earth’s families (cf. Acts 8:1-4 and 13:44-52, 18:1-6, 19:8-10, 28:23-28 with Romans 9:1-29).
     
    #121 Iconoclast, Jan 20, 2018
    Last edited: Jan 20, 2018
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  2. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    ibid;
    So Jerusalem – the symbol of a world in rebellion against the Lord and His Christ (cf. Galatians 4:21-31; Revelation 11:1-8; also Isaiah 1:1-10) – would receive Paul the way it had received its Messiah (Luke 13:34-35, 19:29-44). Paul would not die in Jerusalem, but like his Lord, his entrance into the city would mark the beginning of the end of his labors.
     
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  3. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
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    Actually yes. The whole purpose of the opening chapters of Romans is summed up in 3:9. 'For we have previously charged both Jews and Greeks that they are all under sin.' If there were any ' that by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and incorruption, eternal life' no doubt they would be saved by works, but the fact is that 'there is none righteous, no, not one; there is none who understands; there is none who seeks after God. They have all turned aside..........etc., etc., Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified.' 'But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed .....even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ' (Romans 3:10-12, 20-21).
     
  4. John of Japan

    John of Japan Well-Known Member
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    I don't have time to answer all of these emails aimed directly at me, most of which don't address my points at all. For example, no one yet has told me how in the world the earthly, physical throne of David that the Messiah is supposed to occupy can become Christ sitting on a throne next to the Father in Heaven (never described as David's throne).

    I am at Starbucks right now, where I have to work on a grad course I am taking, History of Baptist Missions. This course matters far more to me than some dim chance I can convince anyone here of dispensational truth.

    The only thing I'll take time to say is that every one of the posts you guys have piled on me fail to distinguish between individual Jews, who must get saved just as any Gentile does, and Israel as a nation. A literal hermeneutic will bring out this point easily.

    Have a great weekend.

    P. S. Don't ever quote Pink to me. I have no respect for the man. At the end of his life he even quit going to church.
     
  5. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
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    With respect, brother, you will quote whomever you want and I'll quote whomever I want. I'm well aware of Pink's failings, but what he wrote is either true to the Scriptures or it isn't, and IMHO it usually is..
     
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  6. Reformed

    Reformed Well-Known Member
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    I have always wondered whether Pink suffered from depression. Depression is a virulent form of mental illness that has assailed many Christians. If I am not mistaken Spurgeon suffered from depression, or as it was called in his day 'melancholy'.
     
  7. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
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    I think it entirely likely.
    In the eyes of the world, Pink was an utter failure; his pastorates had been brief and often ended in acrimony (not usually his fault). The magazine he was writing was being read by only a tiny handful of people. The Reformed churches in the Isle of Lewis were paedobaptist and often legalistic. It is no wonder if he was depressed.

    Of course he was quite wrong to stop attending church, but his books have been hugely helpful to thousands since his death, not least to myself. God has honoured his work and so should we.
     
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  8. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known Member
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    My own family never crucified me
     
  9. prophecy70

    prophecy70 Active Member

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    Can you Pre Darby this idea?
    http://www.pre-trib.org/articles/view/short-history-of-dispensationalism

    1800 yeas of church history, and a doctrine being so "literal" no one seen until the 1800s? Sure..........

    Neither is any part of the 1000 years described as Jesus ruling on "davids throne".

    I think the whole Gospel explains it. The Jews were looking for a physical king to reign on earth. Jesus made it certain this was NOT the plan. Its silly to say Jesus must reign on actual Throne of David. If you want to be even more literal about it, is it his actual chair?


    2nd Samuel 7
    "When your days are complete and you lie down with your fathers, I will raise up your descendant after you, who will come forth from you, and I will establish his kingdom."He shall build a house for My name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom forever.

    ACTS 2
    Fellow Israelites, I can tell you confidently that the patriarch David died and was buried, and his tomb is here to this day. 30But he was a prophet and knew that God had promised him on oath that he would place one of his descendants on his throne. 31Seeing what was to come, he spoke of the resurrection of the Messiah, that he was not abandoned to the realm of the dead, nor did his body see decay. 32God has raised this Jesus to life, and we are all witnesses of it. 33Exalted to the right hand of God, he has received from the Father the promised Holy Spirit and has poured out what you now see and hear. 34For David did not ascend to heaven, and yet he said,

    “ ‘The Lord said to my Lord:
    “Sit at my right hand
    35until I make your enemies
    a footstool for your feet.

    If you stick with premillennialism and the postponement of the kingdom, David wouldn't be dead when the " kingdom" came, he would be resurrected!

    Jesus came to establish the kingdom when he 1st came. He did just that, the Kingdom with out observation!
    The kingdom is now, he is ruling in Heaven!

    Matthew 28:18
    Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.

    If you think he's leaving ultimate glory to a physical chair in Jerusalem then so be it.
     
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  10. prophecy70

    prophecy70 Active Member

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    With respect as well, what authority do you have to say what we can quote?
     
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  11. prophecy70

    prophecy70 Active Member

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    Is this not physical?

    Amos 9:11
    "In that day I will restore David's fallen shelter-- I will repair its broken walls and restore its ruins-- and will rebuild it as it used to be.

    Is it still physical?

    Acts 15
    The whole assembly became silent as they listened to Barnabas and Paul telling about the signs and wonders God had done among the Gentiles through them. 13When they finished, James spoke up. “Brothers,” he said, “listen to me. 14Simona has described to us how God first intervened to choose a people for his name from the Gentiles. 15The words of the prophets are in agreement with this, as it is written:

    16“ ‘After this I will return
    and rebuild David’s fallen tent.
    Its ruins I will rebuild,
    and I will restore it,
    17that the rest of mankind may seek the Lord,
    even all the Gentiles who bear my name,
    says the Lord, who does these things’b
    18things known from long ago.
     
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  12. Covenanter

    Covenanter Well-Known Member
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    I addressed this point & the teaching of Romans 11 here -

    Others have also addressed the position of indivual Jews & Israel as a nation.
     
  13. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    Regardless of how much you don't like what it says because it doesn't suit your unscriptural 'sola fide' dogma, the passage means precisely what it says:

    5 but after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up for thyself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
    6
    who will render to every man according to his works: Ro 2

    28 Marvel not at this: for the hour cometh, in which all that are in the tombs shall hear his voice,
    29 and shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of judgment. Jn 5

    10 For we must all be made manifest before the judgment-seat of Christ; that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he hath done, whether it be good or bad. 2 Cor 5

    34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
    35 for I was hungry, and ye gave me to eat; I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink; I was a stranger, and ye took me in;
    36 naked, and ye clothed me; I was sick, and ye visited me; I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
    41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into the eternal fire which is prepared for the devil and his angels:
    42 for I was hungry, and ye did not give me to eat; I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink;
    43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in; naked, and ye clothed me not; sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. Mt 25

    ....there's not even any mention of faith at the judgement, let alone 'faith alone'. We're going to be judged by our works.

    Compare:

    13 for not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified:
    14 (for when Gentiles that have not the law do by nature the things of the law, these, not having the law, are the law unto themselves;
    26 If therefore the uncircumcision keep the ordinances of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be reckoned for circumcision?
    27 and shall not the uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who with the letter and circumcision art a transgressor of the law? Ro 2

    With:

    8 Owe no man anything, save to love one another: for he that loveth his neighbor hath fulfilled the law.
    9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not covet, and if there be any other commandment, it is summed up in this word, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.
    10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbor: love therefore is the fulfilment of the law. Ro 13

    12 All things therefore whatsoever ye would that men should do unto you, even so do ye also unto them: for this is the law and the prophets. Mt 7

    Are you going to tell me that you're not a doer, a fulfiller, of the law?

    Take your 'sola fide' blinders off, stifle your aversion to any mention of works in relation to our justification, and try to rightly divide this:

    ...the doers of the law shall be justified Ro 2:13

    ...by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified... Ro 3:20
     
    #133 kyredneck, Jan 21, 2018
    Last edited: Jan 21, 2018
  14. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
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    If I can be justified by works. what do I need Christ for? 'For if righteousness comes by the law, then Christ died for nothing' (Galatians 2:21). But no, I am not, in myself, a doer, a fulfiller of the law, but I know a Man who is and I am united to Him by faith.
    Leaving aside the tedious ad homs, you are right on one thing. These verses need to be reconciled and just punting verses to and fro gets us nowhere. It's bedtime in Britain, so why don't you stop printing out random verses and pretending they prove your case, and explain to the people how you reconcile Romans 2:13 and Romans 3:20? If you can't do it, don't worry; I will do so sometime tomorrow (DV).
     
  15. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    Well, I think better of you Martin and believe you to be a doer of the law, and, maybe you don't even realize you're doing the law ("when saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?") because the law is written in your heart, and it comes NATURALLY to those whom God has wrought within. Yea, I think better of you Martin.

    Ad homs? Your ego making you thin skinned like another on this thread?

    I didn't just kick some passages around. I showed concisely, WE ARE GOING TO BE JUDGED BY OUR WORKS.

    Sure, it's really simple:

    ...the doers of the law shall be justified Ro 2:13
    This comes naturally, from the heart that's had the law supernaturally written upon it. Agape, it's called, " love therefore is the fulfilment of the law".

    ...by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified... Ro 3:20
    Law of Moses=no path to God
     
    #135 kyredneck, Jan 21, 2018
    Last edited: Jan 21, 2018
  16. Reformed

    Reformed Well-Known Member
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    I am trying to understand where you are coming from when you claim we are going to be judged by our works. Maybe you can make it easy for me. Instead of me asking you a bevy of questions, can I impose on your to explain how justification takes place and how works are something Christians are going to be judged on? Once I understand what it is you believe I will be in a better position to interact with you.

    Thank you.
     
  17. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    Are you serious? Yes or no. Are Christians included in this?:

    6 who will render to every man according to his works: Ro 2

    Are Christians included in this?:

    29 and shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of judgment. Jn 5

    Are Christians included in this?:

    10 For we must all be made manifest before the judgment-seat of Christ; that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he hath done, whether it be good or bad. 2 Cor 5

    Are Christians included in this?:

    4 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
    5 for I was hungry, and ye gave me to eat; I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink; I was a stranger, and ye took me in;
    6 naked, and ye clothed me; I was sick, and ye visited me; I was in prison, and ye came unto me. Mt 25
     
  18. Reformed

    Reformed Well-Known Member
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    Before I even look at the verses you posted I am going to answer your question. Yes. I am serious. I am not sure what you believe. Sometimes you post things that seem to indicate we have things in common; then you post things that make me question that. I am genuinely interested in what you believe and I think the best way to find out is to ask you directly. Of course, you do not have to answer me plainly. I am quite capable (and willing) to just move along. I am only asking because my curiosity is piqued.
     
  19. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    Then answer my questions.

    Yes or no. Are Christians included in this?:

    6 who will render to every man according to his works: Ro 2

    Are Christians included in this?:

    29 and shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of judgment. Jn 5

    Are Christians included in this?:

    10 For we must all be made manifest before the judgment-seat of Christ; that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he hath done, whether it be good or bad. 2 Cor 5

    Are Christians included in this?:

    4 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
    5 for I was hungry, and ye gave me to eat; I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink; I was a stranger, and ye took me in;
    6 naked, and ye clothed me; I was sick, and ye visited me; I was in prison, and ye came unto me. Mt 25
     
  20. Reformed

    Reformed Well-Known Member
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    Forget it. I am not that interested. I just wanted to know what you believe, not some question and answer session. I mean, if you cannot tell me what you believe, how is a pop quiz going to tell me? Anyway, I will leave you to your other conversations.
     
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