How so? I am no fan of T.D. Jake, but since when does the Trinity come up in the gospel. I believe in the Trinity but the gospel does not even mention the Trinity. Are you saying that a person has to understand the Trinity to be saved?
The gospel is not any old thiung we want to make it or add to it. Here is the gospel;
Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
No Trinity understanding needed.
T.D.Jakes
Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by Onlybygrace, Nov 30, 2010.
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Ok Preacher4truth let's do the old back and forth::thumbs:
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QUOTE=Onlybygrace;1614154]I think we need to clearly define what we each mean by "false teacher".
I won't get into semantics on this. It only turns to "you're wrong" "no you're wrong" so why bother? In other words, this is my take on it. Not going to go back and forth. Maybe this will be helpful. That is what I seek and hope to do.
Lol, it amazes me how people who can't answer a technical question like to say:" I won't get into semantics". That's really just a way of saying I can't think of a substantial answer. Semantics are everything my friend. One of the chief reasons the church is in the disunified mess it is in at the mo is becuase people can't be bothered about semantics. It is impossible to debate any issue if we are not clear about what we are saying. If you don't want to clarify its because you want to hide behind terminology and churchlese and not tie yourself to a position that is indefensable. God is very interested in semantics. He says what He means and means what He says. He expects us to get up on a Sunday morning and do nothing else other than clarify semantics to the people we minister to so that they can apply His word accurately. So I'm afraid brushing the issue I raised aside with that platitude doesn't work.
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Even though we are using the same terminology I get the distinct feeling we are not all on the same page.
We're Baptists.
I'm not quite sure what you mean by that. Are you're saying we are not all on the same page because we ARE Baptists, in which case I agree with you or are you saying that because we are all baptists we don't disagree in which case I wil say that you need just read this post to realise that is a fallacy. So either way you are wrong or are making a point which I fail to comprehend and I would appreciate you enlightening me.
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As far as I understand it, and I stand to be corrected, The false teachers that infiltrated the church in the new testament were not actually Christians. Their teachings were based on salvation by works, twisted interpretations of the person and work of Christ and an host of other unholy paraphanalia.
Of course they weren't Christians. But they claimed to be. But, if Judaizers make comment today, teach their doctrine, proselytize, the reaction of the politically correct culture that has effected the Gospel, and the Church, would in turn tell those who oppose such teachers as being false heretics and ministers of Satan, (who by the way transform THEMSELVES into ministers of light 2 Cor. 11:14,) that "just because they don't believe your way, doesn't mean they aren't born-again" and; "don't judge and love them as brothers because they are saved too." Thus this argument has serious flaws, because of the being church being affected by our culture, instead of our church effecting culture, as it should be.
Brother preacher I agree with your sentiments here but let me ask you some things:
1.What makes a person a Christian? Is it believing correctly about all doctrine or particular doctrines? Eg. If I believe in salvation by grace through faith in the person and work of Christ but I'm not sure whether He is coming back before or after the tribulation or I speak in tongues am I saved or unsaved?
2.Do you have all you doctrine 100% correct and if not are you then not saved or a false teacher?
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A person who teaches in a church but who genuinely knows Jesus Christ as his personal Lord and Saviour surely cannot be lumped into the same category?
You can't determine if they genuinely know Christ. False teaching does tell us what we can know. Check Matthew 7.
I think that you're looking at that one with blinkers on and not taking the time to listen to your own statements. You say you can't know if someone is a Christian. Why then are you prejudging the fact that people who don't believe exactly what you do are not Christians. So you are contradicting yourself. If you say that you are saying that on the basis of scripture then you are still contradicting yourself because you said you couldn't know originally and now, hey presto, when its convenient suddenly you can. Tsk tsk tsk. Naughty Naughty!
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Are we saying that every other pastor in every charismatic, pentecostal and mainline church today is actually a false teacher because their doctrine is off in places or we don't agree with them? If we are that's quite a statement!
Off in places, such as when they teach Arminianism, in that, they teach that Christ only gave us a chance to be saved, after we accept Him? Such is the well known teaching of such. "Slain in the spirit?" "Doctrines of devils?" False"revelations?" Claiming to be apostles? I'd say that most of these churches embrace these things. Word-faith also? Making the Gospel into gain. These things are heresy. The verdict on those that embrace these things is clear.
You are obviously avoiding answering the question directly so I will ask it again in a clear way: "Are you saying that every pastor in every pentecostal, charismatic and mainline church is in your opinion a false teacher bearing in mind that by biblical definition and your explanation that would mean they are in fact not even Christian? Is that what You Preacher4truth are saying?
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Also, who can claim that their doctrine is 100% accurate in every facet? If you do, is it because it appears that way to you and you believe it to be so or because it actually is?
It's not about being 100% correct in every facet. There are some things we just do not know. But it does boil down to Christ. And no matter what they say , or we say about that, it doesn't matter, it is what they or we teach (and how we live, but that is not proof in itself, look at the JW's for example.) That is really telling what they believe: what they teach. Therein lies the difference. For all of us.
You are contradicting yourself again. Now you say it is NOT about being 100%.So which is it? If it doesn't matter then whats the problem? Are you saying being correct in doctrine and preaching the truth are 2 completely different things? Also JWs are cultists who hate Jesus Christ and deny His deity and atonement. Are you now equating pentecostals and charismatics with them?
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We as Baptists have a number of practices in our churches that have questionable biblical origins to say the least e.g. voting, Sunday school, etc. Their origins are more cultural, historical, traditional and pragmatic than biblical or spiritual yet we defend them as truth. Since we teach and propagate those things is that not also a subversive form of false teaching since it denies the truth for the sake of comfort and convenience? Does that make us all false teachers to some degree?
Not at all.
Saying not at all is a stance, could you perhaps provide a little explanation as to why you feel that way? I would really be interested to know.
:thumbs: Blessings back at ya bro -
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The question then is were we saved when we repented and believed at the that time or not because we didn't understand the trinity, know of it or believe in it?
Secondly, you need to bear in mind that by biblical definition a false teacher is in fact NOT a Christian. So to call T.D.Jakes a false teacher in a biblical sense, is in fact tantamount to saying the man is not saved. That is exactly why I asked this question to begin with. Because I think it is a serious thing to go around labeling people as false teachers and not saved simply because they do not fit into our theological framework. -
JohnDeereFan Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
First of all, "legalism" refers to adherence to the law or to works to obtain salvation. I never said, nor do I believe, anything of the sort.
Second, our doctrine and practice is nothing like Westboro Baptist.
Seriously, how did I slander you?
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JohnDeereFan Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
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JohnDeereFan Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
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One problem here. I don't care what you think. And hopefully, you don't care what I think, but are objective about it. I care what the Word says on the matter. Your opinion is subjective and fallible. It is also very shallow and there is no support from you that their doctrines are correct in light of Scripture. Only a subjective "they're not false teachers." Based upon what? You.
Herein lies the fallacy, your illogical logic, and shows how it is immersed in subjectivity: (by your implication) "I know charismatics. They are nice people. They will get more rewards than me. They do good works. They are my friends. Thus, they are not false teachers." That is so wrong. We could also apply this refusal to compare their doctrine to Scriptures, and false logic logic to JW's, and instead only make a conclusion based upon a subjective friendship with such, and outter appearances, and their works, and conclude thereby, "No, they're not false teachers". Until we look at what their doctrine is (teaching) and not life (outer appearance) we will never ever be able to determine whether or not what they teach is false.
They most certainly are false teachers. In every sense of the term. Scriptures support this, as I have given and alluded to.
The following doctrines are false teaching, making those who espouse such, and teach such, themselves, false teachers:
Word-faith is false doctrine. Extra-biblical revelation is false doctrine, and is always theologically incorrect. Slain in the spirit is false doctrine. Claiming apostleship is false doctrine. The Gospel of gain is false doctrine, a la prosperity Gospel. Their entire teaching on faith, is false doctrine, a la if you're sick, poor, or suffer, or otherwise, it is your fault, and is a false representation of true Chrisiianity, a la God is a genie. (If only the martyrs and apostles who suffered for centuries new these truths, they aoule have word-faithed away the flames, and climbed down off of those stakes, and embraced those Catholics, and their doctrine, and voila!!! we'd have all the answers!) Tongue teaching is unscriptural. They embrace Kenneth Copelands theology, Benny Hinn theology, Jerry Savelle theology. All three charismatically aligned, and all three are false teachers.
There is much much more on this. Not all, but many charismatics embrace these doctrines, and teach them, and many many more. Oh, but how they present themselves as wolves, but in sheeps clothing. "See, I'm really really nice, don't believe what they say about me." wink wink.
Wake up.
Perhaps you're a charismatic? Perhaps you should teach their doctrines to your people, in whatever capacity that is. -
Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
I think if that Ole Boy screams & sweats anymore he is going to have a heart attack & I sure as heck wouldnt want to be one of his pall bearers (He's a Big Ole Boy) LOL!
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JohnDeereFan Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
Perhaps you could show some evidence of their teaching that would make them false teachers.
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Herein lies the fallacy, your illogical logic, and shows how it is immersed in subjectivity: (by your implication) "I know charismatics. They are nice people. They will get more rewards than me. They do good works. They are my friends. Thus, they are not false teachers." That is so wrong. We could also apply this refusal to compare their doctrine to Scriptures, and false logic logic to JW's, and instead only make a conclusion based upon a subjective friendship with such, and outter appearances, and their works, and conclude thereby, "No, they're not false teachers". Until we look at what their doctrine is (teaching) and not life (outer appearance) we will never ever be able to determine whether or not what they teach is false.
Your ministry is subjectivity based, not Word centered and objective. This is why you embrace false doctrine and cannot dscern it.
You won't address the list of teachings, because you can't nor won't face truth.
That's all from me.
- Have a good one!!! -
JohnDeereFan Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
I have compared their doctrine to scripture. In fact, not only I, but for the past several years, we've been a part of a group of about twenty pastors, teaching elders, and evangelists who meet regularly. When we meet, we take turns sitting in the hot seat and literally everything we've taught or preached in the previous weeks is gone over with a fine toothed comb.
In all of the years we've been doing this, I can't recall anything that's ever come up as far as they're concerned that was false.
I believe I've been very respectful to you, in spite of your repeated and increasingly hostile attacks toward me, but this time, you're making some very serious charges that you have provided no evidence for.
Frankly, I find you to be a liar, a hypocrite, and a slanderer. Not only have you repeatedly lied about me and my church, you have slandered me, my church, and four Godly men whom you don't even know, and after doing all of that, you threatened to report me for slandering you, even though you could not give any examples of slander, and even though you have repeatedly slandered me.
Not only is your conduct unbecoming of a preacher, but the Bible says that your conduct is grossly disobedient and may even be evidence that you're not saved.
I would strongly encourage you to repent of your behavior and to seriously and thoughtfully and prayfully examine yourself and what your behavior says about your standing before God. -
I have Pentecostal friends who are some of the most sincere, loving, Christlike Christians that I know. By the life they live there is no doubt of their love for their Lord and His people. We don't argue the charismatic stuff when we're together.
In no way would I classify them as heretical or false teachers. Wrong on several points, but never false teachers. -
I lied? Where? You better have a real proof of this. I don't take that accusation or slander lightly. You should be ashamed of yourself. Out of all my sin, that is one thing I definitely do not engage in.
Are you on an all out attack because I thoroughly exposited this thing?
You've compared their doctrine to Scripture? All of them, and all of them are OK? Unreal. All the list I gave are false teachings.
Repeated and increasingly hostile attack by me? Repeatedly slandered you? Name them and use quotes. This is pure emotionalism and no has no basis.
I'm glad you said all of that about me, and not me, about you. Everything I addressed was based upon your implications and what you said.
I don't care that you all out called me names, unsaved, and all of that. I've never accused you of such, nor your men, as you say, only that your assessment of charismatics is purely subjective. The one who has slandered is you, friend.
I am truly sorry you cannot look at this objectively, and in turn, attack.
I don't believe your assements, because they are yours.
You have really got to calm down, friend and stop the name-calling. It doesn't become you.
And I will go and examine myself. -
Oh dear here we go again!!!
Guys is this really necessary? All you are going to succeed in doing is getting the thread closed and thereby pre-empting any further enlightening discussion. Honestly calling each other liars and slanderers doesn't bring any glory to God. You both obviously love the Lord and the truth. You don't have to agree but at least share with one another and challenge one another in a respectful way. You can't be reactive everytime someone says something inflammatory.
Now Preacher4truth.
You debate in a very argumentative and confrontational way and yet you tend to be offended when confronted in the same way. What's up with that?:BangHead:
And Johndeerefan I've been on this site long and read enough of your posts to know that this is neither like you nor becoming of you.:saint:
Now come on guys don't let your sin nature get the better of you here. We are searching for truth not trying to be right!
Preacher I want to ask you a question. Are you proposing that the list of charismatic beliefs you've presented has something to do with salvation? Are you saying that if a person believes them they cannot be saved?
Because in my Bible salvation has nothing to do with those things. If you are proposing that then would you please furnish biblical proof that these false teachings nullify salvation? -
JohnDeereFan Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
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