Ok. Thank you for that. You now stand with the majority on this issue.
My other question was, 'Has God changed since the resurrection'?
Temporal Salvation
Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Earth Wind and Fire, Dec 8, 2014.
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"The advocates of Conditional Time Salvation habitually interchange the expressions, Conditional Time Salvation and Time Salvation, as if they were the same. We expect to show the differences."
Can you tell me in your own words, briefly, what is the difference between Conditional Time Salvation and Time Salvation? -
Brother Kyredneck
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Brother KY Redneck wrote
Brother KY, I would strongly recommend you read the article I posted by Elder Boaz when you have time. (I know parts of it are a hard read, but it is a great article).
In Conditional time salvation it is conditioned upon an individual's will after being regenerated to believe the gospel, repent, and walk in good works, etc., hence it is concluded that some, but not all children of God will believe the gospel, repent, and do good works. In time salvation, it is monergistic in a similar manner as is our regeneration (i.e. God is doing all the work in the believer as it mentions in the Philippians passage I previously cited), thus the outcome of the regenerated soul believing the gospel, doing good works, and repenting is guaranteed and the believer can take no credit for it. -
Did God have a people among the Gentiles outside of the Mosaic Covenant? -
Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
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Brother KYredneck wrote
All the good works we do are attributable only to Christ. "But by the grace of God I am what I am, and His grace which was bestowed upon me, was not in vain, but I labored more abundantly than they all; yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me." (I Cor. 15:10) He labored, yet it was not him, it was grace that wrought. The same Apostle says, "For we know not what we should pray for as we ought; but the spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered." (Romans 8:26)
"For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. (Romans 7:18)
It is a necessary result of regeneration that it is given unto God's children to believe on Christ " For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him..., (Philippians 1:29A). Further, Paul wrote he was not ashamed of the Gospel of Christ, "for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth." (Romans 1:16) Did you notice that Paul said, "unto salvation to every one that believeth?" Not to every one if they will believe it. Who is it that believeth? Those that are born again. -
I suggest to you that God's children are capable of doing everything they're told NOT to do in the Book.
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Brother Kyredneck wrote
Ephesians 3:21 says, "unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen." If this doctrine of conditional time salvation was true, since there the church existed since the time of the apostles, wouldn't you expect to find writings from individuals within the church throughout history in regards to this doctrine? I would.
If God is sovereign, doesn't it follow that all the elect will believe on him? Can you name anyone in the post resurrection new testament that was regenerated, but failed to believe upon him?
I do not believe that God always uses a two legged preacher to reveal Christ to a child of God. Take John the Baptist for example who know Jesus from his mother's womb and also Paul who received by direct Revelation from Christ about who Jesus is. "They shall not teach every man his neighbor and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord." and "For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put My law into their mind and write them in their hearts, and I will be to them a God and they shall be to Me a people." -
Brother Kyredneck wrote
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A couple things; this sounds similar to the LS Doctrine that some promote here, and, the implication of that is that there is indeed very few of us after all, those bound for heaven that is. It also reminds me of some decree from some 'Church council' centuries ago that declared, "There is no salvation outside the Church".
"We know Abraham was righteous, prior to being justified by faith". It makes my heart happy to know you hold to that.
I've got to take Dad some food and watch the granddaughter practice her "nastics". I'm very much enjoying this dialog with you Brother Joe, please don't run off, Lord willing, you've given me much to mull over and comment on. -
One common verse that I have heard those that believe in conditional time salvation preach to teach the idea of regenerated children of God going to heaven and never hearing the gospel is the verse that says, "And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; (Revelation 5:9)
However, they ignore the verse that states, "And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people" (Revelation 14:6)
Further, we read we are "saved by grace through faith" in Ephesians, thus all the elect will have faith. How does faith come? It is a gift of God given by hearing the gospel. We know this because Romans 10:17 declares that “…faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.”Thus I conclude all the elect will hear and have faith in the gospel prior to their death, either being revealed to them by the two legged preacher, an angel in heaven, or direct revelation by Jesus himself (as was the case with Paul).
The gospel is simply the declaration that Christ died for our sins and rose again, this is what will be believed, however the specific nuisances of how a child of God is regenerated by grace alone and justified eternally by his blood may not be known or revealed in their lifetime as was seen with the Corinthians, "And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ" (1 Corinthians 3:1) and "3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. 4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him." (2 Corinthians 11:3-4).
I believe there will be a multitude in Heaven from many denominations ( Catholics, Methodists, etc), but no one who never knew who Jesus was (born after the resurrection) and who never knew who Jesus was while they lived. -
Brother Kyredneckwrote
I won't be running off, but will not be on the forum Friday-Monday, will be back on Tuesday. -
Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
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Another passage that proves all the elect will hear and believe the gospel, "in whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed..." (Ephesians 1:13(a))
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Brother KYRedneck,
Do you disagree with my definition of conditional time salvation that I gave in a previous post? Also, who is responsible for the good fruit produced after regeneration? -
Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
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Brother Earth, Wind, and Fire wrote
Apparently John The Baptist was able to recognize the sound of his savior's mothers voice when he was yet unborn, or else why would he leap in the womb? God is sovereign and is not bound by the limitations understood by man.
Many conditional time Salvationist Primitives will often use the same question you posed to me to others, to convert them to their doctrine. I know through firsthand experience. (I love them and learned much from them regarding how eternal salvation is wrought, but am afraid they are misguided when it comes to time salvation).
Now as to the question of will all the elect hear the gospel scripture tells us," being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:", would it be considered performed if the end result was a "regenerated" Muslim who dies not knowing his savior? Also, this verse touches on time salvation by showing it is God who performs the works in us. Scripture teaches us anything good that comes from us, is from God because nothing good is in us outside of God.
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