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Featured The connection between: Loving Jesus—Obedience—Eternal Life

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by Samuels, Dec 16, 2016.

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  1. Samuels

    Samuels Member
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    John 14:15 • “If you love Me, keep My commandments.”
    John 14:21 • “He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me.”
    John 14:23 • “If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him”
    John 14:24 • “He who does not love Me does not keep My words”
    John 15:14 • “You are My friends if you do whatever I command you.”

    Does anyone get to heaven …
    who does not love Jesus, who is not His friend, who does not keep His commandments?

    James 1 (NKJV):
    12 Blessed is the man who endures temptation; for when he has been approved,
    he will receive the crown of life which the Lord has promised to those who love Him.
    14 But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed.
    15 Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin;
    and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth (eternal) death.
    16 Do not be deceived, my beloved brethren.


    James is warning these beloved brethren (1:16) …
    Believers who love Jesus will overcome the temptation to sin, and thus will be approved,
    and receive the crown of (eternal) life … instead of earning eternal death.

    He is echoing Paul’s warning in Romans 6
    Believers must choose to be slaves of obedience, which leads to righteousness and holiness,
    instead of choosing to be slaves of sin … which leads to eternal death.

    There are 2 opposites above in James 1
    Overcoming sinning > the crown of life … compared to … Sinning > eternal death

    “The believer who perseveres will receive the crown of life.
    The ‘crown of life’ is the crown of victory over sin, or the crown of victory in our life’s race.
    The main meaning of the crown of life is salvation, or eternal life.”
    … The Applied New Testament Commentary -- Thomas Hale, 1996, ChariotVictor Publishing
    (Dr. Hale is a Spirit-filled believer who served as a medical missionary with Interserve in Nepal.)


    Revelation 2 (NKJV):
    10 … Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life.
    11 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.
    He who overcomes shall not be hurt by the second death.


    Jesus considers being “faithful” has to do with overcoming sin, etc. (see Revelation 3:21)
    He certainly does not define an overcomer as one who believes He is the Son of God.
    The second death is being cast into the Lake of Fire (Revelation 20:14 and 21:8).

    There are 2 opposites above in Revelation 2
    Being faithful until death > the crown of life … vs … Not overcoming > eternal death!

    “Above all, the church at Smyrna needed encouragement and strength to endure persecution.
    If they remained firm to the end – to the point of death – they would receive the crown of life,
    that is, eternal life (see Mark 13:13, 1 Cor 9:25, 1 Pet 5:4) … The second death mentioned here
    means eternal death; it is the final punishment for all evildoers.”
    … The Applied New Testament Commentary -- Thomas Hale, 1996, ChariotVictor Publishing


    Please notice that there are NO crowns (plural) mentioned anywhere above!
    No different crowns of varying values … re: rewards.
    When it comes to the crown of life, there is only one … the crown of eternal life!

    The crown of life is also called the crown of righteousness • 2 Timothy 4:7-8
    The crown of life is also called the imperishable crown • 1 Corinthians 9:24-27
    The crown of life is also called the crown of glory • 1 Peter 5:1-4

    Revelation 3:11 (NKJV) “Hold fast what you have, that no one may take your crown.”

    Definitely not Happy Holidays! … but … Merry Christmas!
     
  2. MB

    MB Well-Known Member

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    What you seem to be saying is that if men sin after they are saved they will die the second death. That would mean that the eternal life already given us isn't really eternal life at all. Not to mention completely unattainable in the first place. No man besides our lord has ever kept the Laws and commandments of Jesus in entirety. I've met a lot of men and women who are more humble more loving and more obedient than myself yet not one of them would ever claim they are with out sin.It seems as if you have painted us all in to a corner with legalism. It's interesting though because you my friend are in that same corner.
    MB
     
  3. annsni

    annsni Administrator
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    But what you say here contradicts what the Scriptures say in Ephesians 2:

    "For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them."

    God prepared the good works that we will do them but they do not earn us salvation. The salvation was earned at the cross. It is a gift for us and our response is obedience. It is not a payment for obedience.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  4. JonShaff

    JonShaff Fellow Servant
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    OK so by your definition one may say, "I did it, I persevered, I conquered, I achieved, I am the victor, I did it, I, I I, I"

    Your theology has I-itis.

    Great, so you can boast when you get to heaven.

    Ephesians 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.


    1 Corinthians 1:29-31 That no flesh should glory in his presence.
    But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:
    That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.
     
  5. utilyan

    utilyan Well-Known Member
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    Every good parent feeds their toddler for free. But when the toddler puts a gun in his mouth the problem isn't the funeral you have to pay for him doing this......but the fact he has a gun in his mouth.
    There is NO sinning in heaven. I would argue said your stuck behind the legalism rather then the folks who say one should stop sinning.

    Your saying the ability to not sin is unattainable. Well the bible says there is no temptation you can't handle.

    1 Corinthians 10
    13No temptation has overtaken you but such as is common to man; and God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will provide the way of escape also, so that you will be able to endure it.

    You say you can't stop sinning because your not God, But God says you never have to sin ever again right now even because GOD is GOD.

    If you say to yourself, Me stop sinning? yeah right. Right off the bat you need to repent of THIS sin, because you are denying faith in God.

    Jesus Christ says:

    Matthew 11

    28“Come to Me, all who are weary and heavy-laden, and I will give you rest. 29“Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and YOU WILL FIND REST FOR YOUR SOULS. 30“For My yoke is easy and My burden is light.”

    And now I'm suppose to believe the FAITHFUL think to themselves......yeah right....easy and light? yeah right I can LEARN from Jesus?


    What one needs to do is repent rather then look for excuses and passing the blame on God.

    Stop sinning is piece of cake, the only problem is its a cake you don't want. Come to grips with that first.
     
  6. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Guess the Thief on the Cross got in without any good works to his name!
     
  7. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Salvation is either fully of God, as per Romans 8, or Man centered.
    ONLY 2 "gospels" in this World, one of Jesus, and one of good works!
     
  8. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Saved by Grace alone/Faith alone, correct?
     
  9. JonShaff

    JonShaff Fellow Servant
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    OP said "it doesn't say that those who believe are overcomers."

    Actually, yes it does...

    1 John 5:5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?
     
  10. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    They overcome because Jesus has already for them...
    Not like if they cannot overcome by own efforts, get lost again....
     
  11. utilyan

    utilyan Well-Known Member
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    The Thief did a good work. He spoke up!

    Matthew 12
    37“For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned.”



    Luke 23

    40But the other answered, and rebuking him said, “Do you not even fear God, since you are under the same sentence of condemnation? 41“And we indeed are suffering justly, for we are receiving what we deserve for our deeds; but this man has done nothing wrong.” 42And he was saying, “Jesus, remember me when You come in Your kingdom!” 43And He said to him, “Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise.”

    He had ZERO hope for salvation, He did not receive new heart, The thief doesn't believe he is getting in heaven at all. FAITH -> ZERO. The ONLY THING, the only thread was LOVE. He knew what was RIGHT and what WAS WRONG. And he knows Jesus has done nothing wrong.

    "Remember me when you come in your kingdom" <-- He doesn't expect anywhere near heaven. But he's going defend what is right even fully condemned.
     
  12. MB

    MB Well-Known Member

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    That sounds easy. Have you stopped sinning?
    Once a long time ago I was very determined to stop sinning. I turned from sin with the intention of never going back. I'm saying I tried hard I prayed constantly only to find at the end of the day there was pride in my heart for doing such a great job. Pride the most abominable of sins. The same kind of sin that sends Satan to hell.
    I do not believe anyone has ever lived more than one day with out sinning.Even our own thoughts are sinful. We are all a work in progress, and no one will ever reach innocence until God takes us home and makes it so. You are chasing an illusion if you believe you will attain a sinless existence in this life. The problem isn't faith nor a lack of it. The problem is we all still have a sinful nature in our flesh. The great Apostles couldn't do it.
    Paul wrote in;
    Rom 6:14 For sin will not have mastery over you, because you are not under Law but under grace.

    What exactly does this mean? Paul explains later in chapter 7
    Rom 7:22 For I delight in the Law of God in my inner being,
    Rom 7:23 but I see in my body a different principle waging war with the Law in my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin that exists in my body.
    Rom 7:24 What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body that is infected by death?
    Rom 7:25 Thank God through Jesus the Messiah, our Lord, because with my mind I myself can serve the Law of God, even while with my human nature I serve the law of sin.
    MB
     
  13. MB

    MB Well-Known Member

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    Yes it does Although it's not the temptation or the sin but the nature of men that has not been changed to perfection. In a post in the freewill thread I explained how I once tried not to sin any more. Pride was my down fall. I wasn't tempted to be prideful I was just surprised to find that I had become prideful. Pride is sin and sin lives in our flesh. This sinful nature has not been removed and whether we like it or not we still sin. I'm not saying we should just go ahead and sin all we want to because we are under grace. I still try the best I know how not to sin even though I know that because of my nature I most likely will.
    Don't presume you have the right to Judge by your legalistic attitude. We all know your a legalist. The whole reason God sent His Son into this world is because He knew that we cannot live by the Law. I'm not under the Law anymore I'm under grace. Speaking of sin, It's a sin to presume you are pure enough to pass judgement on others. I call it pride.
    .
    I don't want your kind of cake because it isn't scripture Christians are not under the Law.
    MB
     
  14. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    NONE of us will get saved by ANY amount of good works!
     
  15. Samuels

    Samuels Member
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    IMO, the key is that the following is just to be expected
    and is NOT to be considered "works":
    -- co-operation with the indwelling Holy Spirit (*)
    -- obedience to Jesus' commandments

    The so-called works towards God
    arevastly different than
    the good works/deeds done to our fellow men.

    (*) If He is still there!
    In John 14, IMO, Jesus said IF you obey Him, the Spirit will be in you forever.
     
    #15 Samuels, Dec 20, 2016
    Last edited: Dec 20, 2016
  16. Samuels

    Samuels Member
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    Shall we delve into all of those many NT verses that talk about:

    "IF" you do such and so, you will be saved, and etc.

    Why don't I start a thread on all of those many conditional NT "IF" verses?

    Answer: We prefer to ignore those, and just rely on our grace-only OSAS verses!
     
  17. JonShaff

    JonShaff Fellow Servant
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    Let's see them
     
  18. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    We obey te Lord AFTER being saved by Him, as that is the byproduct of te new nature an Holy Spirit in us now, an we will never get to sinless perfection in this life!
     
  19. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Same response as we I ask for vrses supporting women ordained as pastors, zilch!
     
  20. MB

    MB Well-Known Member

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    Yes but define good works. You aren't very good at it. Words we can be justified by are that we confess that Jesus if the Lord of our Lives.
    Rom 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
    Rom 10:11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
    Will you confess that Jesus is the Lord of your life?
    MB
     
    #20 MB, Dec 20, 2016
    Last edited: Dec 20, 2016
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