You have accused me of philosophy and not using Scripture. I don't see you using any Scripture. You set forth philosophy regularly. In my last post to "Convicted" I used plenty of Scripture. He also agreed with my post.
I can only label your posts as philosophical in nature because you don't use Scripture. But you cannot label me with that. Read my posts and then try to respond to them instead of sitting behind a keyboard and making baseless accusations.
The coupe de grace of deniers of original sin
Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by The Biblicist, Dec 17, 2011.
Page 5 of 9
-
HP: You have absolutely no proof to make any such remark. That is nothing more than humanistic fodder to cover for your false Augustinian dogma of original sin. Your comment is completely without evidence or merit. You use 'context' concerning this passage as a convient tool and nothing more. -
Prove your position with Scripture.
To put it bluntly: You need to put up or shut up! -
The Biblicist Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
2 Thou knowest my downsitting and mine uprising, thou understandest my thought afar off.
3 Thou compassest my path and my lying down, and art acquainted with all my ways.
2. Is David in or out of his body in these verses?
4 For there is not a word in my tongue, but, lo, O LORD, thou knowest it altogether.
5 Thou hast beset me behind and before, and laid thine hand upon me.
3. Where in these verses does it state David died and attempted to flee from the Spirit of God in heaven, hell, in darkenss and in light?
7 ¶ Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence?
8 If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.
9 If I take the wings of the morning, and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea;
10 Even there shall thy hand lead me, and thy right hand shall hold me.
11 If I say, Surely the darkness shall cover me; even the night shall be light aboutme.
12 Yea, the darkness hideth not from thee; but the night shineth as the day: the darkness and the light are both alike to thee.
4. Did David die in verses 7-12 but then get reborn in a body in verses 13-17?
13 For thou hast possessed my reins: thou hast covered me in my mother’s womb.
14 I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvellous are thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well. 15 My substance was not hid from thee, when I was made in secret, and curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the earth.
16 Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect; and in thy book all my members were written, which in continuance were fashioned, when as yet there was none of them.
17 ¶ How precious also are thy thoughts unto me, O God! how great is the sum of them!
So according to you David is in his body from verses 1-7, jumps out of his body in verses 7-12 and then is reborn back into his body in verses 13-17? Based upon what statement in this text?
Are you not overlooking the HYPOTHETICAL "IF" repeated in this context????? -
DHK, I hope by now we have learned a few things in all of our discussions. First, no one is devoid of using philosophy in their arguments. We all do. We either have a philosophy or assume one at every turn dealing in theology. Would you agree with that one simple point?
-
The Biblicist Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
Using philosophic arguments to support the scritpures is one thing, but reversing that order by prioritizing philosophy over the scritpures is another thing! -
The Biblicist Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
-
The Biblicist Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
Not at all! Romans 5:14 with Romans 5:20 and John 1:29 provide the Biblical support for my position.
Romans 5:14 proves that infants suffer death when Adam sinned but without individual willful sin apart from Adam's sin.
Romans 5:20 proves that Christ by his representative obedience gained more than what was Lost by Adam's representative obedience.
John 1:29 proves that Christ took away the SINGULAR "sin" of the world -
HP: DHK you have to have eyes to see with and ears to hear if you desire the truth. Scripture simply does not list false philosophical positions such as original sin.
For instance what if I said that Scripture indicates Pluto is a cube and asked you to prove from Scripture is not? The burden of proof lies on those that claim Scripture supports that such a notion, not on those that say it simply is not supported by Scripture or reason.
All I can do is show that the passages or notions used in support of that dogma are inconsistent with reason as well as Scripture. If you for even a moment try to act as if though I have not carefully examined every text that has been set forth as evidence of the dogma of original sin, you are being less than honest concerning the facts. I cannot think of one verse or one passage I have not addressed even multiple times. If there is one that you can think of, set it forth to the list and I will do my best to address it. The truth is that I have set forth the truths of Scripture that clearly either refute the notion of original sin, or I have shown the misuse of Scripture by trying to make proof texts, like PS 14, Ps53, Ps 58, passages in Romans etc. walk on all four legs in support of the doctrine of original sin which by context prove those using those passages in support of original sin are being careless with Scripture.
-
-
HP: Now are not you a fine one to lecture us after your recent philosophical post on God not punishing infants for their sin. Take some of the medicine yourself that you want to dish out. Prove that Scripture supports that philosophical notion, that God needs to or does takes away the sin of infants by whatever means you say he does. Show us how God excludes infants, incapable of faith, from exhibiting faith, when it clearly states that without faith no one can see God. Show where God states or implies that every sinner must repent if in fact he is to be forgiven, but sinful infants are excluded. We are looking for solid Scriptural evidence.:thumbsup: -
Gen 3:19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou [art], and unto dust shalt thou return.
Note that the curse that God pronounces is a CHANGE in the way things were. This demonstrates that "returning to the dust" was not part of the original design. This returning to the dust is what we consider physical death... and it is what Ecc 12:7 was talking about:
Ecc 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it. -
No you can do better than that. You must not only refute the position with Scripture, but give an alternative that is Scripturally viable.
-
For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. (James 2:26)
--When the spirit separates from the body, that is death.
This is a much better verse to us than the one in Ecclesiastes, as Ecclesiastes is a book where the author looks upon life from the outside, from man's point of view. That is why the cults like it so much. He searches for happiness in every area of life, and finds nothing but emptiness. Even the verse you quote is looking at life from man's point of view, for we know that "the spirit" (of all men) do not return to God. Only those that are saved will go to be with the Lord. What is written is from the point of view of a man, until you get to the last chapter, and Solomon says: "Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter..." -
"Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned" (Ro.5:12). -
This thread is clearly a shot to the foot of the authors position more than anything.:rolleyes: Would that be called a "Coupe de foot?":smilewinkgrin:
-
That is so typical of those who put more faith in what some men say about the Scriptures than they in what the Scriptures actually say!
The Calvinists teach that spiritual death comes as a result of Adam's sin:
"They (Adam & Eve) being the root of mankind, the guilt of this sin was imputed, and the same death in sin and corrupted nature conveyed to all their posterity, descending from them by original generation" (The Westminster Confession of Faith: VI./3).
However, the Scriptures tell a different story. Paul says that his spiritual death came as a result of breaking God's law:
"For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died. And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death. For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me" (Ro.7:9-11).
Paul describes the Ten Commandments as being "the ministration of death":
"Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life...the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones" (2 Cor.3:6-8).
It is impossible to die spiritually as a result of breaking a commandemt if a person is already dead spiritually. That is because a person must be alive spiritually before he can die spiritually. So common sense dictates that a person does not come out of the womb spiritually dead! -
The Biblicist Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
Romans 5:13-14 is the argument to prove the statement
Romans 5:15-19 is the consequences of the declaration proved by the argument
Sin came into the world by ONE MAN, later more specifically defined "by ONE MAN'S OFFENCE."
Death by sin, later more specifically defiend "by ONE MAN'S OFFENCE many BE DEAD...."
Death passed unto all men because all man sinned when Adam sinned showing the insepable relationship between that sin and death, later defined "by one man's offence many BE DEAD...many were MADE SINNERS."
All have (Aorist tense) sinned, later more specifically defined "by one one man's offence many were MADE SINNERS"
Proof that all sinned "by one man's offence" is that no other revealed law was given to man between Adam and Moses but the one law Adam violated - vv. 13-14a
Proof that all sinned "by one man's offence" is that those who do not individually and willfully sin like Adam did die - hence, infants die before they can individually and willufully sin proving that Adam's sin is the cause of their death. -
The Biblicist Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
Paul is talking about himself correct?
He is talking about the transition point in his life where he went from being "alive" to being "dead" correct?
We know this transition did not occur as a child or even as a teenager or even as an adult Pharisee! How do we know that? Because Paul tells us that he still regarded himself as "blameless" touching the Law even AFTER he had begun persecution of Christians in Acts 8!
Philip. 3:6 Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.
He did not find out he was BLAMEWORTHY or CONDEMNED under law until Acts 8 as a full adult well over the age of 30 (that is the minimum age to be a rabbi and member of the sanhedrin).
Tell me, if had died while holding the cloaks of those who stoned Stephen would he have gone to heaven or hell becuase he was still "ALIVE" and did not see himself any other way but "BLAMELESS" as touching the law???? -
Page 5 of 9