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The Day of Christ.
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Craigbythesea
Well-Known Member
Keith,
Welcome to the Baptist Message Board!
In my opinion, you and Lacy are both reading too much into the parables and analogies from the harvest of crops.
Ed Edwards
<img src=/Ed.gif>
Jesus says
in Matthew 9:27-28 (HCSB):
37 Then He said to His disciples,
"The harvest is abundant, but the workers are few.
38 Therefore, pray to the Lord of the harvest
to send out workers into His harvest."
Lacy Evans
New Member
The whole context of Luke 21 is the trib. But in verse 36 we see plainly that it is possible for some who are faithfully watching to escape ALL those things described in Luke 21.
Luke 21:36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.
Also I believe the elders and beasts in Rev 5 are representative of pre-trib raptured saints. I believe this because they are there before the throne worshipping God before the six seals are opened in chapter 6. They are present again when (what in my opinion appears to be) a mid-trib rapture occurs in Rev. 7:9-17.
Rev 3:10 also hints that escape from the trib is possible if we are faithful. (I realize that there are other possible applications of that verse but it fits.) The other thing is Enoch. What else could he possibly be a type of besides a pre-trib raptured saint? He was raptured before a single rain drop fell because he pleased God.
Hebrews 11:5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.
Lacy
Craigbythesea
Well-Known Member
Brother Lacy,
Thank you for answering my question. Personally, I don’t see so much as a hint of a pre-trib rapture in any of those verses, and I view much of Luke 21 to be describing the fall of Jerusalem in 70 A.D.
I believe that our God is a very loving and compassionate God that answers prayer, and I believe that the many prayers of David to see the recompense of the wicked will be answered through the eyes of the Church during the great tribulation when they personally witness the recompense of the wicked. I also believe that Psalm 91 is prophetic of this:
Psalms 91
1. He who dwells in the shelter of the Most High Will abide in the shadow of the Almighty.
2. I will say to the LORD, "My refuge and my fortress, My God, in whom I trust!"
3. For it is He who delivers you from the snare of the trapper And from the deadly pestilence.
4. He will cover you with His pinions, And under His wings you may seek refuge; His faithfulness is a shield and bulwark.
5. You will not be afraid of the terror by night, Or of the arrow that flies by day;
6. Of the pestilence that stalks in darkness, Or of the destruction that lays waste at noon.
7. A thousand may fall at your side And ten thousand at your right hand, {But} it shall not approach you.
8. You will only look on with your eyes And see the recompense of the wicked.
9. For you have made the LORD, my refuge, {Even} the Most High, your dwelling place.
10. No evil will befall you, Nor will any plague come near your tent.
11. For He will give His angels charge concerning you, To guard you in all your ways.
12. They will bear you up in their hands, That you do not strike your foot against a stone.
13. You will tread upon the lion and cobra, The young lion and the serpent you will trample down.
14. "Because he has loved Me, therefore I will deliver him; I will set him {securely} on high, because he has known My name.
15. "He will call upon Me, and I will answer him; I will be with him in trouble; I will rescue him and honor him.
16. "With a long life I will satisfy him And let him see My salvation." (NASB, 1995)
If the Church is raptured before the Great Tribulation, the church will not partake of the joy of seeing the recompense of the wicked, for which David so often prayed, and the Jewish people have for so long yearned for. I believe God to be fair and just, and for Him to deny the church of this blessing seems to me to be beneath the character of the God whom I know, love, and serve.
Some people today teach that Christians are to forgive all wrong doing, but I do not see anything of the sort in the Bible. We are to forgive those wrong doers who repent, and those who do wrong because they do not know any better, but where in the Bible does it tell us to forgive those who knowingly do wrong, and rejoice in the doing of it without the slightest desire or intention to repent of their evil ways.
The Great Tribulation will be a time of wrath upon the wicked, and the saints shall be witness of it. Upon the completion of it, Christ will return to the earth to reign for 1,000 years, and the believers in Christ will be caught up to meet Him as he returns, and they shall return with Him and reign with Him.
Thank you for answering my question. Personally, I don’t see so much as a hint of a pre-trib rapture in any of those verses, and I view much of Luke 21 to be describing the fall of Jerusalem in 70 A.D.
I believe that our God is a very loving and compassionate God that answers prayer, and I believe that the many prayers of David to see the recompense of the wicked will be answered through the eyes of the Church during the great tribulation when they personally witness the recompense of the wicked. I also believe that Psalm 91 is prophetic of this:
Psalms 91
1. He who dwells in the shelter of the Most High Will abide in the shadow of the Almighty.
2. I will say to the LORD, "My refuge and my fortress, My God, in whom I trust!"
3. For it is He who delivers you from the snare of the trapper And from the deadly pestilence.
4. He will cover you with His pinions, And under His wings you may seek refuge; His faithfulness is a shield and bulwark.
5. You will not be afraid of the terror by night, Or of the arrow that flies by day;
6. Of the pestilence that stalks in darkness, Or of the destruction that lays waste at noon.
7. A thousand may fall at your side And ten thousand at your right hand, {But} it shall not approach you.
8. You will only look on with your eyes And see the recompense of the wicked.
9. For you have made the LORD, my refuge, {Even} the Most High, your dwelling place.
10. No evil will befall you, Nor will any plague come near your tent.
11. For He will give His angels charge concerning you, To guard you in all your ways.
12. They will bear you up in their hands, That you do not strike your foot against a stone.
13. You will tread upon the lion and cobra, The young lion and the serpent you will trample down.
14. "Because he has loved Me, therefore I will deliver him; I will set him {securely} on high, because he has known My name.
15. "He will call upon Me, and I will answer him; I will be with him in trouble; I will rescue him and honor him.
16. "With a long life I will satisfy him And let him see My salvation." (NASB, 1995)
If the Church is raptured before the Great Tribulation, the church will not partake of the joy of seeing the recompense of the wicked, for which David so often prayed, and the Jewish people have for so long yearned for. I believe God to be fair and just, and for Him to deny the church of this blessing seems to me to be beneath the character of the God whom I know, love, and serve.
Some people today teach that Christians are to forgive all wrong doing, but I do not see anything of the sort in the Bible. We are to forgive those wrong doers who repent, and those who do wrong because they do not know any better, but where in the Bible does it tell us to forgive those who knowingly do wrong, and rejoice in the doing of it without the slightest desire or intention to repent of their evil ways.
The Great Tribulation will be a time of wrath upon the wicked, and the saints shall be witness of it. Upon the completion of it, Christ will return to the earth to reign for 1,000 years, and the believers in Christ will be caught up to meet Him as he returns, and they shall return with Him and reign with Him.
Greetings in Jesus' name,
The Bible doesn't say that the rapture is for escape from the tribulation; rather it says that the rapture is for the gathering together of believers into the clouds to meet Christ in the air at His second coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17; 2 Thessalonians 2:1; Mark 13:24-27).
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May the Lord Jesus Christ reveal to us the truth regarding these matters.
In 2 Thessalonians 2:3, the Greek word apostasia (Strong's #646) refers to a departure from the faith, for Strong's Greek Dictionary defines apostasia as a "defection from truth," "apostasy." This is why it's translated in the KJV as "falling away" and "forsake" (2 Thessalonians 2:3; Acts 21:21). The Apostle Paul foretells the same "departure from the faith" in 1 Timothy 4:1.
Yes, the rapture will be at the "coming" of Christ (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8; 1 Corinthians 15:23; Matthew 24:29-31), and there's no third coming. This is why no scripture says or requires that the rapture will happen before the tribulation. Mark 13:24-27 says it will happen after the tribulation. 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8 refers to the same coming and gathering together (verse 1), and says it can't happen before the man of lawlessness is revealed (verse 3), as it must destroy him (verse 8). Revelation 7:14; 13:10; 14:12-13 says we Christians will be here during the tribulation, and that we'll need patience and faith during that time.
The rapture will be a time of sorrow for unbelievers and a time of joy for believers (Matthew 24:30-31; 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10).
The time of Jacob's trouble isn't the entire tribulation, but the very end of the tribulation, right before the second coming (Jeremiah 30:7-9; compare Daniel 12:1-2), when all nations will gather against Jerusalem (compare Zechariah 14:2-4; Daniel 11:45). In the tribulation there'll be Christians from every nation (Revelation 7:9-14), not just Israel.
The Bible doesn't refer to a church age because the church will be "throughout all ages" (Ephesians 3:21). The church is made up of all Christians of all time, whether Jew or Gentile (1 Corinthians 12:13), for there's only one faith, and only one body (Ephesians 4:4-6), which body is the church (Ephesians 1:22-23). Christians who will live to enter into the tribulation will be members of the church, for they (like other Christians) will have washed their robes in the blood of the Lamb (Revelation 7:14), will have the faith of Jesus (Revelation 14:12), and will die in the Lord (Revelation 14:13).
The times of the Gentiles won't be fulfilled before the tribulation because Luke 21:24 says Jerusalem will be trodden down by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles is fulfilled, and Revelation 11:2 says Jerusalem will be trodden down by the Gentiles during the tribulation.
When Revelation 20:4 refers to the martyrs of the Antichrist in its description of the first resurrection, this doesn't mean that the rest of the church that had died throughout history isn't resurrected at the same time, just as when Revelation 15:2 refers to the martyrs of the Antichrist in its description of heaven, this doesn't mean that the rest of the church that had died throughout history isn't in heaven at the same time. The entire church, including the martyrs of the Antichrist, will be resurrected at one time, at the second coming of Christ (1 Corinthians 15:23); this is the first resurrection (Revelation 20:5), so there can't be a resurrection of the church before this one.
The raising of the two witnesses during the tribulation (Revelation 11:11-12) isn't the same as the church's resurrection into immortal bodies and rapture only as far as the clouds at the second coming (1 Corinthians 15:23, 52; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17), for the two witnesses are only resuscitated back into their mortal bodies like Lazarus and Tabitha were (John 11:43-44; Acts 9:36-40), and taken into heaven like Enoch and Elijah were (Genesis 5:24; 2 Kings 2:11). Neither the resurrection nor the rapture can occur until the second coming (1 Corinthians 15:23; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17), and by Revelation 11 the second coming hasn't yet occurred.
Jesus was the firstfruits, and they that are His won't be resurrected until His second coming (1 Corinthians 15:23). Therefore, Matthew 27:52-53 refers to a resuscitation back into mortal bodies as with Lazarus and Tabitha.
We're commanded to pray always, that we might be accounted worthy to escape the tribulation. But Luke 21:36 doesn't require a pre-trib rapture because some will escape the coming tribulation by dying before it starts (Isaiah 57:1; compare 2 Chronicles 34:28), or by receiving miraculous protection on the earth during the tribulation (Revelation 12:14).
The Bible doesn't say that the rapture is for escape from the tribulation; rather it says that the rapture is for the gathering together of believers into the clouds to meet Christ in the air at His second coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17; 2 Thessalonians 2:1; Mark 13:24-27).
When we look at Revelation 4-5, we find that it doesn't say or require that the twenty-four elders or the four beasts who are singing in Revelation 5:8-9 are men. They could be angels and seraphim who are offering up in song the "prayers of the saints" before God (Revelation 5:8, compare Revelation 8:3-4).
It doesn't say that the great multitude (Revelation 7:9-14) were raptured. They could be a large number of Christians from every nation who entered into the tribulation and then died in the seals in the chapter just prior (Revelation 6).
Revelation 3:10 is addressing only one of the seven first-century church congregations in the Roman Province of Asia (Revelation 1:4, 11) about the same first-century time of trial that Revelation 2:10 is addressing another of the first-century church congregations in the Roman Province of Asia about. You can't take Revelation 3:10 without also taking Revelation 2:10. (See also 1 Peter 4:12-13.)
When we count up the years we find that the translation of Enoch (Genesis 5:24) was in no way connected to the flood in the days of Noah, but instead occurred over 600 years before the flood. And no scripture says that we're to look to the translation of Enoch as a type of the rapture, rather we're to look to the patient suffering of righteous Job (James 5:10-11), which same patience we'll need during the coming tribulation (Revelation 13:10, 14:12-13).
Regarding God's protection of the saints, during that part of the tribulation which is before the vials of God's wrath (Revelation 16), only some saints will be physically protected from Satan (Revelation 12:14) and the Antichrist, while other saints will be imprisoned and killed (Revelation 13:10, 14:12-13), many by being beheaded (Revelation 20:4). This is how it was during the first-century persecution of the church: only some saints were protected (e.g. Revelation 3:10) while other saints were imprisoned and killed (e.g. Revelation 2:10), many, like the Apostle Paul, by being beheaded.
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May the Lord Jesus Christ reveal to us the truth regarding these matters.
Craigbythesea
Well-Known Member
Amen!
Ed Edwards
<img src=/Ed.gif>
DAY OF THE LORD - the time in which Jesus will once
again interfeere in the affairs of man.
Man must first prove himself totally
incapable of running his own affairs.
The Lord's Day - Sunday, better still: Sonday.
If you would bother to read the thread ...
Ed Edwards
<img src=/Ed.gif>
Craigbythesea: "I believe that our God is a very loving and compassionate God that answers prayer, and I believe that the many prayers of David to see the recompense of the wicked will be answered through the eyes of the Church during the great tribulation when they personally witness the recompense of the wicked."
Right! -- I believe that our God is a very loving
and compassionate God that answers prayer.
I do NOT believe He will let his beloved bride: the gentile
church to be massively raped (i.e. go through the
tribulation period wrath judgements. It serves NO purpose.
Or are we going to have to listen to people praying like this?
God purge thy 400 Million real Christians with
Chi-comm nuclear fire ...
It will be sufficient for David to see the recompese
of the wicked from his soul in heaven.
Right! -- I believe that our God is a very loving
and compassionate God that answers prayer.
I do NOT believe He will let his beloved bride: the gentile
church to be massively raped (i.e. go through the
tribulation period wrath judgements. It serves NO purpose.
Or are we going to have to listen to people praying like this?
God purge thy 400 Million real Christians with
Chi-comm nuclear fire ...
It will be sufficient for David to see the recompese
of the wicked from his soul in heaven.
Ed Edwards
<img src=/Ed.gif>
I note the following concerning the post of Brother
Postrib made 97 June 01:25AD EDT:
1. no complete sentencce is ever quoted. Thus no
whole idea is debated.
2. with an exception or two, short phrases are debated.
3. the statement of mine that is quoted that most
resembles a whole sentence (at least it was three lines
long), he agrees with
By attacking my words not my ideas,
i conclude there is an attempt to steal my HOPE.
BTW, the words (phrases) he chooses to debate
are NOT the key words upon which we disagree.
Those words upon which we disagree are:
1. the first "and" in Matthew 24:31
2. the "and" in 2 Thessalonians 2:1
3. the ampersand (&) in the KJV1611 in Rev 20:4
4. the first "and" in Titus 2:13
5. and the "first" in Rev. 20:5
Simple disputes over simple words.
Yet it makes the difference between the blessed
hope that some generation of Christians will be
gloriously raptured prior to the tribulation period
wrath judgements
instead of that same numberless group watching
their familys being destroyed by the gross evil
of the world then having to die and
go to eternal hell after denying Jesus.
Sorry, just the way i feel right now. But i'm not
going into the tribulation period wrath judgements
and i'm not letting those persons for whom i have
eternal responsibility go either.
There is a difference between those "and"s.
Postrib made 97 June 01:25AD EDT:
1. no complete sentencce is ever quoted. Thus no
whole idea is debated.
2. with an exception or two, short phrases are debated.
3. the statement of mine that is quoted that most
resembles a whole sentence (at least it was three lines
long), he agrees with
By attacking my words not my ideas,
i conclude there is an attempt to steal my HOPE.
BTW, the words (phrases) he chooses to debate
are NOT the key words upon which we disagree.
Those words upon which we disagree are:
1. the first "and" in Matthew 24:31
2. the "and" in 2 Thessalonians 2:1
3. the ampersand (&) in the KJV1611 in Rev 20:4
4. the first "and" in Titus 2:13
5. and the "first" in Rev. 20:5
Simple disputes over simple words.
Yet it makes the difference between the blessed
hope that some generation of Christians will be
gloriously raptured prior to the tribulation period
wrath judgements
instead of that same numberless group watching
their familys being destroyed by the gross evil
of the world then having to die and
go to eternal hell after denying Jesus.
Sorry, just the way i feel right now. But i'm not
going into the tribulation period wrath judgements
and i'm not letting those persons for whom i have
eternal responsibility go either.
There is a difference between those "and"s.
Craigbythesea
Well-Known Member
Amen! Whoops!
I must be loosing my mind. I actually said Amen to something that Ed wrote. I better make that,Amen, with reservations!
Craigbythesea
Well-Known Member
The Great Tribulation is the time of God's wrath upon the wicked.
So do you believe that the wicked are Christians?
Ed Edwards
<img src=/Ed.gif>
The Great Tribulation is the time of God's wrath upon the wicked.
So do you believe that the wicked are Christians?
(images suppressed so i can have my own) :eek </font>[/QUOTE]There are 2,000 million people on earth of whomit is said "they are Christians". Jesus
"says narrow is the way and few there
are that find it". So how many of the
2,000 million called Christians are real
Christians (on God's list?). My polls of
Christians average that there are
200 million (I'm more optimistic and say
that 400 million would be raptured, if the
rapture were held today. But if the
rapture is held 3½-years from now as some
say or 7-years from now as other posties say,
the 400 Million real-Christians would go
into the tribulation period wrath judgments
and 1600 Million pseudo-Christians
would go into tribulation period.
Well one of my arguments is that God
will protect His Jewish Israeli elect saints
in the wilderness against the antichrist
(Rev 12:6, 12:14). Well is God going to
protect 18 million Jewish Israeli elect
saints there in the wilderness
or 400 Million born-again redeemed
Bride-of-Christ mostly gentile Christian
elect saints. I think the physical Jews.
The whole reason for the Day of the Lord
is to save the remenant of PHYSICAL ISRAEL.
When the tribualation period wrath judgements
start is when the Antichrist is revealed by
renewing a pledge for the physical state
around Jerusalem, a 7-year treaty (probably
the day after the rapture, but that is a
premmie feeling). At the mid-tribulation
crisis, the antichrist will enter the
holy Temple on mount Zion and declare that
he and he alone is God. Then the physical
Jew will trust that Jesus (the stone
of the corner that they rejected) is the
real Messiah. These Jews of Yisrael shall
be transported to the wilderness area
God has prepared. Sorry, but the 400 Million
mostly gentile Christians would just get
in the way. So i that is why i think Jesus
will do a rapture/resurrection to start
the DAY OF THE LORD.
Craigbythesea
Well-Known Member
If I am not mistaken, I read in one of your posts that you own a Bible . Do you suppose that you could open up that Bible and share with us the verses upon which you are basing the statements in your last post?
. Do you suppose that you could open up that Bible and share with us the verses upon which you are basing the statements in your last post?
Ed Edwards ---
In Rev 1:10, there is no day of the week associated with that term. If people thought Tuesday was "the Lord's Day", that is what day we would think the term referred to.
John was in vision on the day of the Lord (the Lord's Day), when the moon and sun looked like blood and the stars fell from heaven. Rev 1:10 is referring to "the day of the Lord", not a day of the week.
If people want to know what day of the week the Lord's Day is, just turn to Matthew 12:8: "For the Son of man is LORD EVEN OF THE SABBATH DAY".
In Rev 1:10, there is no day of the week associated with that term. If people thought Tuesday was "the Lord's Day", that is what day we would think the term referred to.
John was in vision on the day of the Lord (the Lord's Day), when the moon and sun looked like blood and the stars fell from heaven. Rev 1:10 is referring to "the day of the Lord", not a day of the week.
If people want to know what day of the week the Lord's Day is, just turn to Matthew 12:8: "For the Son of man is LORD EVEN OF THE SABBATH DAY".
DeafPosttrib
New Member
I understand what Rev. 1:10 talking about.
Some saying, 'Lord's day' is the "day of the Lord"
Some saying, 'Lord's day' is the sabbath or Sunday
I understand Rev. 1:10 very clear, what it talks about. Rev. 1:10 tells us, John's experince of the revelation while he received the vision from Jesus Christ. John tells us, he received the message from Jesus Christ by the revelation in THAT DAY in year around 95 A.D. while he was on Patmos Island. 'Lord's day' -does not saying it is 'day of the Lord' or 'sabbath' either. My understand what John was talking about. He tells us, in THAT DAY in the year around 95 A.D., he received the vision by the revelation of Jesus Christ while he was on Patmos Island. Rev. 1:10 do nothing with seven year of tribulation period or sabbath or Sunday either. Understand?
In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!
Some saying, 'Lord's day' is the "day of the Lord"
Some saying, 'Lord's day' is the sabbath or Sunday
I understand Rev. 1:10 very clear, what it talks about. Rev. 1:10 tells us, John's experince of the revelation while he received the vision from Jesus Christ. John tells us, he received the message from Jesus Christ by the revelation in THAT DAY in year around 95 A.D. while he was on Patmos Island. 'Lord's day' -does not saying it is 'day of the Lord' or 'sabbath' either. My understand what John was talking about. He tells us, in THAT DAY in the year around 95 A.D., he received the vision by the revelation of Jesus Christ while he was on Patmos Island. Rev. 1:10 do nothing with seven year of tribulation period or sabbath or Sunday either. Understand?
In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!
Ed Edwards
<img src=/Ed.gif>
Yes, i own Bibles, i own Several paper Bibles and many electronic Bibles.Originally posted by Craigbythesea:
If I am not mistaken, I read in one of your posts that you own a Bible
No, i won't open a Bible right now,
i have memorized enough scriptures
that i don't need to open them for
eschatological studies.
Yes, i will share the scriptures upon which
i base my previous statements:
Genesis 1:1 through Revelation 22:21.
"In the beginning, God created the heavens
and the earth ... The grace of our Lord
Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen!
No, i will not share the scriptures with
you. I had to dig it out myself with
great effort with the guidance of the
Holy Spirit and already posted it here on
the Baptist Board. Dig it out yourself, if
you wish. What you work for, you respect
more anyway.
Ed Edwards
<img src=/Ed.gif>
http://www.baptistboard.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi/topic/3/2096/9.html?
that is, Rapture: hocus-pocus (Page 9)
I say this:
Anyway, the data in this paragraph is NOT based
on the Bible but on a coversation i had
in 1988 with a rabbinical student in New York.
Aren't comptuers wonderful? This full bearded
Orthodox Jew would rather die than have the
very shadow of a gentile like myself even cross
his body. Yet the screen-to-screen nature of the
computer media (well in '88 there werent' pictures)
let him speak to me.
I asked: How will you know that the Messiah has
come? Here is the three things the Rabbi-student
said:
1. peace will be brought to Yisrael (Jewish term for Israel)
2. the daily sacrifice will be restored
3. the Temple in Yierusalem shall be rebuilt.
Well, here is my thoughts on what this
student-Rabbi said which is not in the Bible -
well, what he said is not in the Bible, but i
beleive that what he said is TRUE and is representative
of the non- Christian Jewish mind.
And by the way, it is an archinsult to even
mention "Christ" or "Christian" to a Jew. Too many of
them remember being killed in the past in the name:
"Christ", by Christians. BTW, "Christ" is NOT a name
as some pinheaded people use it, but is a title
meaning "chosen one of God". Well the Hebrew
title for the "chosen one of God" is "Messiah".
The Jews have it backwards, they say the one who
is Messiah will do these things, in reality it will
be the one who does these things will be called
"Messiah" but will be the antimessiah (gentiles call
him the antichrist). It will take awile to
rebuild the Temple on what is called "Temple Mount"
but was in the Old Testament called "Mount Zion".
I can see that being 3-1/2 years to build, in these
modern times. Recall that in the Time Jesus
there was a major reconstruciton of the Temple going on,
yet the daily sacrifice was going on. The daily sacrifice
only needs a space in the right place on Temple Mound.
That space is inside the walls of the temple and is
not needed for the construciton. The daily sacrifice
can be begun the same day that antimessiah proclaimes
the peace with Yisrael, the time plan for
the construction of the. Those of you who
stay behind after the pretribulation rapture remember
my prediction: the treaty will be for 7-more
years, the planned construction for 3½-years.
During the time until the planned construciton the
Antichrsit produces a complete temple, the
daily sacrifice will be made and antimessiah shall
consolidate his antikingdom. Then at the middle
of the treaty period, antimessiah shall go into
the temple (perchance to dedicate it?) and instead
commit the AOD. Antimessiah shall declare himself
god. Many millions Jews watching on TV will see
suddenly that Messiah is not the antichrist
by the Jesus you lived some 2,000 years ago.
Then antimessiah will reign completely for 3½-years.
But hey, this is just a short summary out of
my head. (this is NOT being copied from some
shuckster millionare fiction author).
new material: The Jews will not accept a gentile antichrist
but a jewish antimessiah is likely. Perchance the
Beast from the Sea of Rev 13 will be the antichrist,
and the Beast from the Land (false prophet) will be the
antimessiah. So that is probably a better explanation.
These conversations with the rabbinical student took place in 1989, on what ever passed
for the internet in those days.
that is, Rapture: hocus-pocus (Page 9)
I say this:
Anyway, the data in this paragraph is NOT based
on the Bible but on a coversation i had
in 1988 with a rabbinical student in New York.
Aren't comptuers wonderful? This full bearded
Orthodox Jew would rather die than have the
very shadow of a gentile like myself even cross
his body. Yet the screen-to-screen nature of the
computer media (well in '88 there werent' pictures)
let him speak to me.
I asked: How will you know that the Messiah has
come? Here is the three things the Rabbi-student
said:
1. peace will be brought to Yisrael (Jewish term for Israel)
2. the daily sacrifice will be restored
3. the Temple in Yierusalem shall be rebuilt.
Well, here is my thoughts on what this
student-Rabbi said which is not in the Bible -
well, what he said is not in the Bible, but i
beleive that what he said is TRUE and is representative
of the non- Christian Jewish mind.
And by the way, it is an archinsult to even
mention "Christ" or "Christian" to a Jew. Too many of
them remember being killed in the past in the name:
"Christ", by Christians. BTW, "Christ" is NOT a name
as some pinheaded people use it, but is a title
meaning "chosen one of God". Well the Hebrew
title for the "chosen one of God" is "Messiah".
The Jews have it backwards, they say the one who
is Messiah will do these things, in reality it will
be the one who does these things will be called
"Messiah" but will be the antimessiah (gentiles call
him the antichrist). It will take awile to
rebuild the Temple on what is called "Temple Mount"
but was in the Old Testament called "Mount Zion".
I can see that being 3-1/2 years to build, in these
modern times. Recall that in the Time Jesus
there was a major reconstruciton of the Temple going on,
yet the daily sacrifice was going on. The daily sacrifice
only needs a space in the right place on Temple Mound.
That space is inside the walls of the temple and is
not needed for the construciton. The daily sacrifice
can be begun the same day that antimessiah proclaimes
the peace with Yisrael, the time plan for
the construction of the. Those of you who
stay behind after the pretribulation rapture remember
my prediction: the treaty will be for 7-more
years, the planned construction for 3½-years.
During the time until the planned construciton the
Antichrsit produces a complete temple, the
daily sacrifice will be made and antimessiah shall
consolidate his antikingdom. Then at the middle
of the treaty period, antimessiah shall go into
the temple (perchance to dedicate it?) and instead
commit the AOD. Antimessiah shall declare himself
god. Many millions Jews watching on TV will see
suddenly that Messiah is not the antichrist
by the Jesus you lived some 2,000 years ago.
Then antimessiah will reign completely for 3½-years.
But hey, this is just a short summary out of
my head. (this is NOT being copied from some
shuckster millionare fiction author).
new material: The Jews will not accept a gentile antichrist
but a jewish antimessiah is likely. Perchance the
Beast from the Sea of Rev 13 will be the antichrist,
and the Beast from the Land (false prophet) will be the
antimessiah. So that is probably a better explanation.
These conversations with the rabbinical student took place in 1989, on what ever passed
for the internet in those days.
Greetings in Jesus' name,
The danger with the pre-trib teaching is that it gives the church a false hope that it won't have to be on the earth during the tribulation. When this false hope fails, and the church enters into the tribulation suffering, many in the church could become offended with God that He would allow them and their little ones to suffer like that, and their love for Him could grow cold (Matthew 24:9-13), to where they could fulfill the apostasy of 2 Thessalonians 2:3 which the Apostle Paul said must come before the rapture comes; or some in the church could even be deceived into thinking that the enemy has been able to somehow thwart God's will. But if we approach the tribulation knowing that Jesus has clearly warned us ahead of time what we must suffer (Mark 13:23), and that we must endure unto the very end (Matthew 24:13), when the suffering comes we'll have a better chance of not being offended and of not committing apostasy and of not being deceived, and we'll be better prepared to remain on the earth with patience and faith (Revelation 13:10, 14:12-13), no matter what happens.
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May the Lord Jesus Christ reveal to us the truth regarding these matters.
The bride of Christ is the church (Ephesians 5:31-32). Again, the church is made up of all Christians of all time, whether Jew or Gentile (1 Corinthians 12:13), for there's only one faith, and only one body (Ephesians 4:4-6), which body is the church (Ephesians 1:22-23). Christians who will live to enter into the tribulation will be members of the church, for they (like other Christians) will have washed their robes in the blood of the Lamb (Revelation 7:14), will have the faith of Jesus (Revelation 14:12), and will die in the Lord (Revelation 14:13).
The church will go through the tribulation (Revelation 7:14; 13:10; 14:12-13) without being appointed to wrath (1 Thessalonians 5:9; 1:10), for no one in heaven calls the seals (Revelation 6) or trumpets (Revelation 8-9) of the tribulation wrath. They only call the vials of the tribulation (Revelation 16) wrath, and none of the vials will be directed against the believers who will be on the earth (Revelation 16:15).
From the beginning Jesus has allowed many in the church to suffer greatly and die during wars, persecutions, and natural disasters. In the same way, He'll allow many in the church to suffer greatly and die during the tribulation (Revelation 13:10, 14:12-13).
When we look at threads on message boards, we often find that in order to save bandwidth and get right to the point, people don't quote and reply to every single part of a comment made by someone else in a prior post, for that prior post is still there for all to see. As you've no doubt noticed, before I quote one part of a comment I always indicate which post I've taken it from so that if anyone is interested they can easily re-read the original comment in its entirety. Also, complete comments can often contain two or more different ideas which can be more clearly responded to in parts, that is, when we analyze the complete comment into its separate parts we can often more easily recognize the false premise or premises upon which the complete thought is based.
My purpose isn't to steal any true hope which we as believers have in Christ, but only to dispel the false hope of a pre-trib rapture which isn't found in the Bible. Our true and blessed hope is the hope of eternal life (Titus 1:2; 2:13; 3:7; 1 Thessalonians 5:8; Romans 8:23-25; Acts 23:6), which will be fulfilled in Christ Himself (1 Timothy 1:1; John 14:6; Colossians 1:27), and which will be given to us at the very end (Matthew 24:13), at the revelation of Christ (1 Peter 1:13).
There are nine and's in Matthew 24:29-31. Nothing suggests that any one of them has a different meaning than the rest of them. All of them form the account describing what will happen at the second coming.
Again, the rapture/resurrection will be at the "coming" of Christ (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17; 1 Corinthians 15:23; John 14:3; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8; Matthew 24:29-31), and there's no third coming.
We as believers are waiting for the appearing of Christ (Hebrews 9:28; Titus 2:13). We must remain righteous until His appearing (1 Timothy 6:14; 1 John 2:28). We will be judged at His appearing (2 Timothy 4:1). We will not get our crowns until His appearing (1 Peter 5:4; 2 Timothy 4:8).
When we look at the scriptures, we find that they don't say or require that the rapture will happen before the tribulation. Mark 13:24-27 says the rapture will happen after the tribulation. 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8 refers to the same coming and gathering together (verse 1), saying it can't happen before the man of lawlessness is revealed (verse 3), for it must destroy him (verse 8). Revelation 7:14; 13:10; 14:12-13 says we Christians will be here during the tribulation, and that we'll need patience and faith during that time.
The danger with the pre-trib teaching is that it gives the church a false hope that it won't have to be on the earth during the tribulation. When this false hope fails, and the church enters into the tribulation suffering, many in the church could become offended with God that He would allow them and their little ones to suffer like that, and their love for Him could grow cold (Matthew 24:9-13), to where they could fulfill the apostasy of 2 Thessalonians 2:3 which the Apostle Paul said must come before the rapture comes; or some in the church could even be deceived into thinking that the enemy has been able to somehow thwart God's will. But if we approach the tribulation knowing that Jesus has clearly warned us ahead of time what we must suffer (Mark 13:23), and that we must endure unto the very end (Matthew 24:13), when the suffering comes we'll have a better chance of not being offended and of not committing apostasy and of not being deceived, and we'll be better prepared to remain on the earth with patience and faith (Revelation 13:10, 14:12-13), no matter what happens.
The day of the Lord isn't the tribulation, but will begin at the second coming (1 Corinthians 1:7-8).
Christians who will live to enter into the tribulation will be from all nations (Revelation 7:9-14), not just physical Israel.
There'll be a false Messiah who will arise to rule Israel who will be a different person than the Antichrist and who will be a false "prince of the covenant" whom the Antichrist will "cut off" or "make a covenant with" or "make a league with" (Daniel 9:26; 11:22-23). The Hebrew word translated as "cut off" in Daniel 9:26 is karath (Strong's #3772), the definitions of which include "to covenant (i.e. make an alliance or bargain, originally by cutting flesh and passing between the pieces)." Karath is translated as "covenanted with" in 2 Chronicles 7:18 and Haggai 2:5, and is translated as "made a league with" in 1 Samuel 22:8. After making his treaty (league or covenant) with the false Messiah, the Antichrist will allow him and his followers to continue for a few years to offer sacrifices in a temple that will have been rebuilt in Jerusalem, but then the Antichrist will suddenly break the treaty and stop all sacrifices and sit in the temple and proclaim himself to be God above all gods (2 Thessalonians 2:4; Matthew 24:15; Daniel 9:27, 11:31-36, 12:11-12; Revelation 13:4-6).
The two horns of the False Prophet could represent his initially holding two religious ruling positions simultaneously. He could become both Pope and Imam or Ayatollah, initially combining a nominal Christian religion with a nominal Islamic religion into one syncretistic religion.
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May the Lord Jesus Christ reveal to us the truth regarding these matters.