Rippon :Bingo! God really did chose some people for heaven , not all. You're right ,His death was not for all people. ( But I would caution you never to use the word elect in reference to someone bound for Hell. Reprobates are fore-ordained to damnation. But elect is always toward those bound for glory and everlasting life.)
The Gospel: God Centered, Free, Powerful
Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Dale-c, May 19, 2008.
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I guess that does devolve from a scheme where God only lets certain ones hear the gospel and believe -- unless both those premises are wrong. :tear:
skypair -
The "election" spoken of is of the Abraham-Isaac-Jacob line that were the "family tree" ("olive tree"/nationality) through which God would create "elect," believing Israel - "My chosen people!"
BTW, glad to see you engaging the issues of the article. :wavey: That opening video of dale-c's was quite controversial and he "came off" like his Catholic equivalent, Scott Hahn who gets his audiences roaring with laughter over tenets that Protestant believers hold dearly.
skypair -
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God has indeed arranged it that only some hear the gospel. And of that group, only some of these will believe.But I don't get any connection you are trying to make here. -
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Isn't it nice how so many christians refuse to admit the original meanings of so many words in the bible, so they do not have to the believe scripture. I hear this all the time. I was told the other day, they did not believe in predestination or election, I said they're in the bile, explain that, he just said I just don't believe them. Refusing to deal with their exsistance, refusing the original greek word meanings. God doesn't know what He's talking about apparently.
To call God unfair is to accuse Him of unrighteousness.
God, the creator of the universe, sets His rules, we do not, not one man alive has the right to call God unfair. -
skypair -
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I believe in predestination. I believe in election. I just do not believe in a calvinistic definition of the terms.
I trust Jesus. He said if He be lifted up He would draw all men to Himself. John 3 makes it clear those who believe are saved, and those who do not are condemned.
I like the old preacher's illustration of systematic theology:
It's a hot and humid day in East Texas. We are at a little country store with a pop machine and peanuts inside. 100 hot and weary cotton pickers with no money mill around outside.
The true arminian thinks God walks up, buys 100 rc colas and 100 bags of peanuts and goes out and sits on the porch. If you come up and ask nicely, you get an rc and a bag of peanuts. Your name is not put on them, and if you set them down for even a minute you lose them. If you don't consume them with a fair amount of couth God will come snatch them away.
The free gracer believes God goes in and buys 100 pops and 100 bags of peanuts. He comes to you and offers you some. You don't have to accept it, but once you do it is yours forever. He will hang out with you, love on you, and even let you help go around and offer everyone some.
The calvinist thinks God shows up, buys a few rc's and a few bags of peanuts, goes out and picks out a few people, rassles them down and pours the pop down their throats and dumps in the peanuts whether they want'em or not. Then He sits back to watch and make sure they act like people who are grateful.
Free grace is the only one that matches up with the whole Bible in my book.
Your milage may vary. -
Second, that discussion is about why God would birth one man as a Jew and another as a Gentile. You didn't read far enough. Read 9:22-23 -- 9:24, "Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?"
skypair -
skypair -
The calvinist thinks God shows up, buys a few rc's and a few bags of peanuts, goes out and picks out a few people, rassles them down and pours the pop down their throats and dumps in the peanuts whether they want'em or not. Then He sits back to watch and make sure they act like people who are grateful.
RIP: That's blasphemy. Earlier in your post you said you disagreed with the way Calvinists define things like predestination. Well, wow! Just go ahead and state total fabrications and call it Calvinism! That way your particular definition will hold sway, won't it?
You can't name a single Calvinist on the BB ( or elsewhere, for that matter) who belives God violently forces someone into the kingdom. Be honest, it won't help you persuade someone to be a Free-willer, or Free-gracer as you like to say, but at least Calvinists won't dismiss you for dealing in pure bunkum. -
I would encourage you to go back and read the post very carefully again. -
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Maybe God can give us the answer.
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