The nation of Israel is antichrist...

[Daniel David]

The majority of ethnic Israel rejects Christ as God. According to 1 John 4, those who do just that have the spirit of antichrist.

Another poster on another thread seems to be surprised by my saying this. Is it not true? If that isn't what the text means, perhaps someone could point out what it does mean.

Some people still think Israel is God's people. Never mind that he constantly judges them (even today) for rejecting his Son. Let us see, there was Hitler, Stalin, Lenin, the Palestinians today...

They will not be God's people until they repent of their sin and embrace Christ as Lord and Savior.

 

[Johnv]

I wouldn't say that the "Nation" of Israel is anti-christ. A nation, country, village, whatever, by today's reckoning, is not a living entity. I would concur, however, that individuals who live in any nation, country, nation, etc, who have chosen not to have a relationship with Christ as savior are hence condemned to eternal death. That goes for Isreal, the US, Lichtenstein, or any other place.

 

[Daniel David]

Originally posted by Johnv:
I wouldn't say that the "Nation" of Israel is anti-christ.

That would be why I said the "majority..."

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

For that matter, I might argue that the whole world is anti-Christ (using a very broad generality of course). But, to say that Hitler, et al is God's judgment on Israel is a bit far, IMO, since it is quite clear to me that there have been Christians who have been victims of these evil men as well. The bottom line is that the spirit of Anti Christ is in the whole world, not just the nation of Israel. Surely, you are not singling them out as the single foremost evil in the world, correct?

Joseph Botwinick

 

[Tim]

Israel is unique among modern nations as the only one whose government officailly promotes Judaism. Judaism is inherently anti-Christ (just ask any of your religious Jewish friends what they think of Jesus Christ). Judaism (by it's own admission)is based on the teachings of pharisee rabbis and their spiritual disciples. So I believe we could make the case that (officially at least) the modern nation of Israel is anti-Christ.

This does not make me antisemetic. I'm simply applying 1 John 2: 22,23 & 1 John 4:3 to the current governmental religious policy of Israel.

It often puzzles me why some Christians who condemn Catholics (who at least confess Christ)feel a great kinship with Judaism (which denies Him).

In Christ,

Tim

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

Originally posted by Tim:
Israel is unique among modern nations as the only one whose government officailly promotes Judaism. Judaism is inherently anti-Christ (just ask any of your religious Jewish friends what they think of Jesus Christ). Judaism (by it's own admission)is based on the teachings of pharisee rabbis and their spiritual disciples. So I believe we could make the case that (officially at least) the modern nation of Israel is anti-Christ.

Yes. And I guess that secular humanism and atheism which is promoted by the United States is pro-Christian? Also, our promotion of genocide of the unborn must be perfectly fine with Christianity? Please, gimme a break. And then we have Arab countries which promote Islam. I guess that is pro-Christian? The truth is that the spirit of Anti-Christ is all over the world, and Israel is not unique in that. Their mode of rejection of Christ is just different. And if you say otherwise, I think you are anti-semitic.

 

[Grasshopper]

What did Jesus say to the 1st century Jews?

Matt 23: 23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye tithe mint and anise and cummin, and have left undone the weightier matters of the law, justice, and mercy, and faith: but these ye ought to have done, and not to have left the other undone.
24 Ye blind guides, that strain out the gnat, and swallow the camel!
25 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye cleanse the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full from extortion and excess.
26 Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first the inside of the cup and of the platter, that the outside thereof may become clean also.
27 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which outwardly appear beautiful, but inwardly are full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness.
28 Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but inwardly ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity.
29 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye build the sepulchres of the prophets, and garnish the tombs of the righteous,
30 and say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we should not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.
31 Wherefore ye witness to yourselves, that ye are sons of them that slew the prophets.
32 Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.
33 Ye serpents, ye offspring of vipers, how shall ye escape the judgment of hell?
34 Therefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: some of them shall ye kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute from city to city:
35 that upon you may come all the righteous blood shed on the earth, from the blood of Abel the righteous unto the blood of Zachariah son of Barachiah, whom ye slew between the sanctuary and the altar.
36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.
37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, that killeth the prophets, and stoneth them that are sent unto her! how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.
39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord

Does that sound like the "chosen people" of the New Covenant?

Who is the Israel of the New Covenant?

Gal. 3 28 There can be neither Jew nor Greek, there can be neither bond nor free, there can be no male and female; for ye all are one man in Christ Jesus.
29 And if ye are Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, heirs according to promise.

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

Grasshopper,

So true. And it is still true today in the whole world. It is just as true today in America as it was in 1st century Israel.

Joseph Botwinick

 

[Grasshopper]

So true. And it is still true today in the whole world. It is just as true today in America as it was in 1st century Israel.

Sadly Matt 23 describes many churches in America today.

 

[LadyEagle]

Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, sounds like woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites.

Doesn't sound like the whole nation of Israel to me, just the scribes, Pharisees, and Hypocrites. The same could be said to certain religious leaders today. Or political leaders.

I must be missing the point.

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

Lady Eagle,

Do you believe that those Jews who reject Christ will go to heaven? If you say no, then you have just got my point. I think the point is to say that Jews, in general, who reject Christ is God, have the spirit of Anti-Christ, just the same as Muslims, secular humanists, atheists, Buddhists, Hindus, and all other religions of the world who reject Christ. At least that is my point. If ANYONE, whether they be Jew or no, rejects the diety of Christ, then they have the spirit of anti-Christ in them and if they die without repenting and being saved, they will go to Hell. There is really no disputing this Biblically.

I do agree, however, that it is interesting how some of the posters here seem to want to single out Israel as being unique in their rejection of Christ to the exclusion of condemning all other nations of the world which have the same spirit of Anti-Christ (rejection of Christ's diety), including our own nation. I see one side showing a twinge of anti-semitism. On the other hand, to say that Jews who reject Christ have the Spirit of Anti-Christ is not anti-semitic. It is Biblical. On the other hand, to do so in exclusion to all other nations and ethnic groups in the world who have their own problems with the Spirit of Anti-Christ, is anti-Semitic.

Joseph Botwinick

 

[Tim]

Originally posted by Joseph_Botwinick:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Tim:
Israel is unique among modern nations as the only one whose government officailly promotes Judaism. Judaism is inherently anti-Christ (just ask any of your religious Jewish friends what they think of Jesus Christ). Judaism (by it's own admission)is based on the teachings of pharisee rabbis and their spiritual disciples. So I believe we could make the case that (officially at least) the modern nation of Israel is anti-Christ.

Yes. And I guess that secular humanism and atheism which is promoted by the United States is pro-Christian? Also, our promotion of genocide of the unborn must be perfectly fine with Christianity? Please, gimme a break. And then we have Arab countries which promote Islam. I guess that is pro-Christian? The truth is that the spirit of Anti-Christ is all over the world, and Israel is not unique in that. Their mode of rejection of Christ is just different. And if you say otherwise, I think you are anti-semitic. </font>[/QUOTE]Israel's official governmental policy is unique in that it promotes Judaism--which was the first specifically anti-Christ religion. Countries which officially espouse Islam are anti-Christ as are Communist countries.

But the U.S. (though far from a Christian country) does not officially promote atheism or secular humanism as the state religion (though it may seem so at times). So America is not officially anti-Christ governmentally as many other countries (including Israel) are--who openly show partially to false religions.

In Christ,

Tim

P.S. You can still call me antisemetic if it makes you feel better--I'm getting used to it now.

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

Originally posted by Tim:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Joseph_Botwinick:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Tim:
Israel is unique among modern nations as the only one whose government officailly promotes Judaism. Judaism is inherently anti-Christ (just ask any of your religious Jewish friends what they think of Jesus Christ). Judaism (by it's own admission)is based on the teachings of pharisee rabbis and their spiritual disciples. So I believe we could make the case that (officially at least) the modern nation of Israel is anti-Christ.

Yes. And I guess that secular humanism and atheism which is promoted by the United States is pro-Christian? Also, our promotion of genocide of the unborn must be perfectly fine with Christianity? Please, gimme a break. And then we have Arab countries which promote Islam. I guess that is pro-Christian? The truth is that the spirit of Anti-Christ is all over the world, and Israel is not unique in that. Their mode of rejection of Christ is just different. And if you say otherwise, I think you are anti-semitic. </font>[/QUOTE]Israel's official governmental policy is unique in that it promotes Judaism--which was the first specifically anti-Christ religion. Countries which officially espouse Islam are anti-Christ as are Communist countries.

But the U.S. (though far from a Christian country) does not officially promote atheism or secular humanism as the state religion (though it may seem so at times). </font>[/QUOTE]You haven't been inside a public school lately have you? You haven't noticed our judiciary moving us more and more into secular humanism and atheism? I think you are not paying very close attention to what is going on in our country. BTW, as far as I know, Israel is not a religious government. It is a secular government (very much like America is). They do not have a rabbi who is the prime minister. They do have other religions in Israel besides Judaism, including Christianity. As a matter of fact, I think I heard that Sharon is not even a religious Jew. I am beginning to wonder if you are pointing out Israel because they are Israel. Do you hate Jews? I am wondering because I cannot find that much of a difference between their government and ours.

So America is not officially anti-Christ governmentally as many other countries (including Israel) are--who openly show partially to false religions.

In Christ,

Tim

P.S. You can still call me antisemetic if it makes you feel better--I'm getting used to it now. [/QUOTE]

Oh yes. Using the same generalities that you used for Israel, America is very much full of the spirit of Anti-Christ in that it does show partiality to false religions which deny Christ. And yes, you are anti-semitic if you are going to deny that fact. I think there is a reason you are getting used to that label. If the shoe fits, wear it.

Joseph Botwinick

 

[KenH]

I think the discussion highlights the problem of speaking of God's salvation plan in terms of nations instead of in the Biblical terms of individuals. The Biblical emphasis is on whosoever will, not on whatever nation will.

 

[HankD]

P.S. You can still call me antisemetic if it makes you feel better--I'm getting used to it now.

That's unfortunate that you are getting used to it because it implies that you have heard it before.

Another point is that there is no such thing as biblical Judaism today. Biblical Judaism is sacrificial Judaism which requires a Temple, a priesthood and the Red heifer (or its ashes) amongst other things.

Today's Judaism is Talmudic Judaism which as you say denies Christ. But so do all the other religions of the world.

I really don't see your point.

HankD

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

Hey Ken,

We actually agree on something. Mark this date on your calendar...

Joseph Botwinick

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

Furthermore Ken,

if I may expand on your thought, it also shows what happens when someone takes a Biblical doctrine and uses it to spread hate exclusively for an entire nation or race of people.

Joseph Botwinick

 

[LadyEagle]

Do you believe that those Jews who reject Christ will go to heaven? If you say no, then you have just got my point.

No, I do not. In fact, I am praying for a (get this one ) Jewish Baptist doctor friend of mine whose mother has never accepted Jesus Christ, yet she was married to his father (who recently passed away), who was a Jewish Baptist Pastor for many years. She was a Baptist pastor's wife, but never accepted Jesus Christ as her Messiah. And she is old. (Please pray for her salvation.)

How convenient for some to absolutely forget that the Church of Jesus Christ is GRAFTED in. And Paul warns not to boast about it, either. Be not highminded, he says, but fear.

Romans 11:

[18] Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
[19] Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
[20] Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
[21] For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
[22] Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
[23] And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
[24] For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?
[25] For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
[26] And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
[27] For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
[28] As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.

They are beloved. Not tossed on the fire as refuse because they rejected the Messiah. Not substituted. Not replaced. They are still beloved. But lost.

BTW, someone made a statement that the first anti-Christ religion was Judaism. It wasn't. The first anti-Christ religion began in the Garden of Eden.

 

[Tim]

Originally posted by Joseph_Botwinick:
Furthermore Ken,

if I may expand on your thought, it also shows what happens when someone takes a Biblical doctrine and uses it to spread hate exclusively for an entire nation or race of people.

Joseph Botwinick

Last I knew there were specific laws in Israel which restricted the free spread of the gospel by Christian missionaries and evangelists. Yes, it is a secular government, but it is under heavy pressure from the orthodox portion of it's population. The government has thus officially discouraged the growth of Christianity in Israel.

I don't see that happening (yet) in the U.S. Regardless of what the ACLU says about nativity scenes and the like, I still have complete freedom to spread the gospel. And I don't send my kids to government-run schools here in the U.S. I have the freedom not to!

I've said nothing that illustrates any hatred toward the nation of Israel or any Jews in particular. That's because I have no hatred toward them.

But on BB if you're not pro-Israel, or if you dare to criticize it's government--somebody is bound to call you antisemetic at least once a month or so.

In Christ,

Tim

 

[KenH]

Originally posted by Joseph_Botwinick:
We actually agree on something. Mark this date on your calendar

Gulp...