The nation of Israel is antichrist...

[Tim]

Originally posted by LadyEagle:

How convenient for some to absolutely forget that the Church of Jesus Christ is GRAFTED in. And Paul warns not to boast about it, either. Be not highminded, he says, but fear.

They are beloved. Not tossed on the fire as refuse because they rejected the Messiah. Not substituted. Not replaced. They are still beloved. But lost.

BTW, someone made a statement that the first anti-Christ religion was Judaism. It wasn't. The first anti-Christ religion began in the Garden of Eden.

LE,

We have not forgotten our spiritual Jewish heritage. I read the words of my Jewish Lord and the Jewish disciples every day. Salvation came through the Jews! And yes, God will still save Jews who turn to Jesus Christ (Paul's point in the passage you quoted). But like anyone else--those Jews who reject Christ will be damned--their physical heritage will avail them nothing in the day of judgment.

In regard to the first anti-Christ religion, it could not truly be so until Christ was revealed. That's why Judaism was first--Christ was revealed first among the Jews--and rejected first among them (Rom. 2:9-11).

In Christ,

Tim

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

Originally posted by Tim:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Joseph_Botwinick:
Furthermore Ken,

if I may expand on your thought, it also shows what happens when someone takes a Biblical doctrine and uses it to spread hate exclusively for an entire nation or race of people.

Joseph Botwinick

Last I knew there were specific laws in Israel which restricted the free spread of the gospel by Christian missionaries and evangelists.</font>[/QUOTE]I have heard reports that one is not allowed to prosyletize. That is wrong, I will grant that. But to say that there are no restrictions here in America in the age of Political correctness, would be at best naive. And there is tremendous pressure on our elected officials to pass hate speech legistlation which is primarily aimed at, you guessed it, Christianity. I predict the day is coming when it will be against the law to say to someone that anyone who rejects Christ will go to Hell. Heck, I can't even excercise my freedom of speech in a public forum by invoking the very name of Jesus, although the generic God seems to be ok for now (unless Mr. Newdough, the 8th circus court of appeals, and ACLU gets their way). Your attempts to demonize the entire nation of Israel and an entire race of people is really pretty pathetic if you consider that they really are not very different from us.
Yes, it is a secular government, but it is under heavy pressure from the orthodox portion of it's population. The government has thus officially discouraged the growth of Christianity in Israel.

I don't see that happening (yet) in the U.S. Regardless of what the ACLU says about nativity scenes and the like, I still have complete freedom to spread the gospel. And I don't send my kids to government-run schools here in the U.S. I have the freedom not to![/QUOTE]

Are you implying that Israelis are not free to do that very thing? Would you cite your source for this? It is no wonder you seem to be clueless about what our government pays for and endorses to be taught in the public schools.

I've said nothing that illustrates any hatred toward the nation of Israel or any Jews in particular. That's because I have no hatred toward them.[/QUOTE]

Your exclusive demonization of Israel as having the spirit of Anti-Christ when every nation in the world shows the same spirit of Anti-Christ (including our own) and your unwillingness to acknowledge as much shows yoour hatred toward Jews and your anti-semitism.

But on BB if you're not pro-Israel, or if you dare to criticize it's government--somebody is bound to call you antisemetic at least once a month or so.

In Christ,

Tim [/QUOTE]

NAH!! I think it is because you are anti-semitic.

Perhaps you should repent for your hatred and racism against an entire nation and race of people.

Joseph Botwinick

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

Originally posted by Tim:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by LadyEagle:

How convenient for some to absolutely forget that the Church of Jesus Christ is GRAFTED in. And Paul warns not to boast about it, either. Be not highminded, he says, but fear.

They are beloved. Not tossed on the fire as refuse because they rejected the Messiah. Not substituted. Not replaced. They are still beloved. But lost.

BTW, someone made a statement that the first anti-Christ religion was Judaism. It wasn't. The first anti-Christ religion began in the Garden of Eden.

LE,

We have not forgotten our spiritual Jewish heritage. I read the words of my Jewish Lord and the Jewish disciples every day. Salvation came through the Jews! And yes, God will still save Jews who turn to Jesus Christ (Paul's point in the passage you quoted). But like anyone else--those Jews who reject Christ will be damned--their physical heritage will avail them nothing in the day of judgment.

In regard to the first anti-Christ religion, it could not truly be so until Christ was revealed. That's why Judaism was first--Christ was revealed first among the Jews--and rejected first among them (Rom. 2:9-11).

In Christ,

Tim </font>

Tim,

This is not true. Christ was first revealed to Adam and Eve in the garden. He is God, remember? Or do you now reject that doctrine?

Joseph Botwinick

 

[LadyEagle]

When we consider the question of why should Christians support Israel, we must define what is meant by "support". It does not mean that we necessarily agree with all policies and actions by the Israeli government. What it does mean is that we are friends of the Jewish people, perhaps the only true friends they have in the world. It is only a friend who can speak frankly and candidly yet still have the other party’s best interest in mind.

As a friend, we are the ones who should most strongly support their claim for the land that God promised. Anyone even vaguely familiar with the covenants between God and Israel should understand that the land grants that God unilaterally conveyed upon Israel are an integral part of those covenants. It is this same land that is being contended for by other parties who are in opposition to God’s declared intentions. We Christians of all people should understand this, and perhaps we even understand it better than Israel currently does. Many in Israel, worn out by decades of terrorism and international coercion, are ready to permanently relinquish portions of this land. It is our duty as friends to assure them that this should not be allowed, and that ultimately all attempts to wrest their land from them will be unsuccessful.

The question of why should Christians support Israel is a question fraught with diverse kinds of theological and historical snares. At first glance, it seems only natural that Christians would support Israel. After all, mention of historical Israel is made every week in church sermons. The Bible upon which Christians base their faith is set almost entirely in the land of Israel. Yet based on the scarcity of discussion in some churches about modern Israel, one would think that the stories in the Bible took place on a different planet, that somehow ancient Israel and modern Israel have nothing to do with each other.

Indeed, some with warped theology have propounded that very idea, denying any kind of legitimacy in God’s future program for Israel. Fueled by the intellectual manure that is shoveled out at many seminaries, many self-acclaimed "religious experts" have done much damage to the truth. Their fallacious arguments are easily refuted based on a literal reading of the Scriptures. However, even among those who might agree that the Israel of today is an Israel described in Bible prophecies, unfortunately very little pulpit time is expended on this topic.

Why is this so? My own observation and conclusion it is due to an over-spiritualization of the Bible. In an attempt to make the narratives and prophecies of the Bible personally relevant to the listeners, preachers have almost entirely neglected explaining the primary understanding and application of these Scriptures.

http://www.worthyinsights.com/features/support-israel.html

 

[Tim]

Originally posted by Joseph_Botwinick:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Tim:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Joseph_Botwinick:
Furthermore Ken,

if I may expand on your thought, it also shows what happens when someone takes a Biblical doctrine and uses it to spread hate exclusively for an entire nation or race of people.

Joseph Botwinick

Last I knew there were specific laws in Israel which restricted the free spread of the gospel by Christian missionaries and evangelists.</font>[/QUOTE]I have heard reports that one is not allowed to prosyletize. That is wrong, I will grant that. But to say that there are no restrictions here in America in the age of Political correctness, would be at best naive. And there is tremendous pressure on our elected officials to pass hate speech legistlation which is primarily aimed at, you guessed it, Christianity. I predict the day is coming when it will be against the law to say to someone that anyone who rejects Christ will go to Hell. Heck, I can't even excercise my freedom of speech in a public forum by invoking the very name of Jesus, although the generic God seems to be ok for now (unless Mr. Newdough, the 8th circus court of appeals, and ACLU gets their way). Your attempts to demonize the entire nation of Israel and an entire race of people is really pretty pathetic if you consider that they really are not very different from us.
Yes, it is a secular government, but it is under heavy pressure from the orthodox portion of it's population. The government has thus officially discouraged the growth of Christianity in Israel.

I don't see that happening (yet) in the U.S. Regardless of what the ACLU says about nativity scenes and the like, I still have complete freedom to spread the gospel. And I don't send my kids to government-run schools here in the U.S. I have the freedom not to!</font>[/QUOTE]Are you implying that Israelis are not free to do that very thing? Would you cite your source for this? It is no wonder you seem to be clueless about what our government pays for and endorses to be taught in the public schools.

I've said nothing that illustrates any hatred toward the nation of Israel or any Jews in particular. That's because I have no hatred toward them.[/QUOTE]

Your exclusive demonization of Israel as having the spirit of Anti-Christ when every nation in the world shows the same spirit of Anti-Christ (including our own) and your unwillingness to acknowledge as much shows yoour hatred toward Jews and your anti-semitism.

But on BB if you're not pro-Israel, or if you dare to criticize it's government--somebody is bound to call you antisemetic at least once a month or so.

In Christ,

Tim [/QUOTE]

NAH!! I think it is because you are anti-semitic.

Perhaps you should repent for your hatred and racism against an entire nation and race of people.

Joseph Botwinick [/QUOTE]

JB,

Surely you don't equate Israeli governmental restrictions against prosyletizing with the pressure exerted by the PC crowd here in the US?
Both share the spirit of antichrist, but only one has official government power behind it to prevent the free spread of the gospel.

And who demonized a "race" of people? I simply demonized a false religion--Judaism. And by the way, so did the apostle John. And I demonized governments (not exclusively Israel's) which set themselves against the spread of the gospel of Jesus Christ.

And lastly, the ones who are clueless about what's being taught in public schools are more likely those who allow their kids to stay in them!

Oh, and I guess I'd better tell that Jewish lady that came to my Bible study recently how much I actually hate Jews--so she'll know better than to come back and hear the gospel again.

Relax JB, we're really on the same team.

In Christ,

Tim

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

I support Israel for political, and not theological reasons.

Joseph Botwinick

 

[Aaron]

Originally posted by Joseph_Botwinick:
For that matter, I might argue that the whole world is anti-Christ (using a very broad generality of course).

Psalm 2

1 ¶ Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing?
2 The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD, and against his anointed, saying,
3 Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us.
4 He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the Lord shall have them in derision.
5 Then shall he speak unto them in his wrath, and vex them in his sore displeasure.
6 Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion.
7 ¶ I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.
8 Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.
9 Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter’s vessel.
10 ¶ Be wise now therefore, O ye kings: be instructed, ye judges of the earth.
11 Serve the LORD with fear, and rejoice with trembling.
12 Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in him.

 

[Aaron]

Originally posted by Joseph_Botwinick:
I support Israel for political, and not theological reasons.

What, pray tell, is the political benefit of supporting Israel?

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

They are fighting against terrorists. I support that.

They are a democracy. I support that.

They are mostly in the right when it comes to the conflict with the Palestinians. I support them because of that.

I also have friends who live there. That isn't really political, I guess. It is probably more emotional. I am a Jew myself. That is probably also a bit more emotional than it is political.

When it comes down to it and when the truth is fully revealed, I think we will learn that Israel and America have both been fighting the same enemies all along because I believe that the terrorists groups are all related; i.e. Hamas, Al Aqsa Martyr Brigade, Islamic Jihad, Al Quaeda, etc...

Joseph Botwinick

 

[LadyEagle]

Amen.

 

[Daniel David]

LadyEagle, the church is not grafted into Israel. That doesn't make sense. You have God cutting off Israel to make the church part of Israel? Wouldn't that mean we are also cut off? Think about that post.

 

[Matt Black]

Pretty much what Joseph has been saying....with just one thing to add: I think that the reason why the likes of Tim (and I hope he will forgive me for putting words into his mouth) are seen to 'single out' Israel as being 'non-Christian' (I hesitate to use the word 'anti-Christ', which is unhelpfully polemic in nature and has been so over-used that we are in danger of devaluing it in meaning)is because there seem to be so many evangelicals who are vehemently pro-Israel and the need is felt to redress the balance a bit. So, Israel has already been 'singled-out' in debate - by the pro-crowd. Is that fair comment, Tim?

Yours in Christ

Matt

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

Matt,

I certainly understand what you are saying. However, I don't think we have to be dishonest and anti-semitic in our remarks to make that balance. Israel is not perfect by a long shot. But to single them out for condemnation as the foremost evil in the world or as Anti-Christs when there is just as much evil and spirit of anti-Christ right here in America, is anti-Semitic.

Joseph Botwinick

 

[Matt Black]

Agreed 100%

Yours in Christ

Matt

 

[Kiffin]

I support Israel for political reasons and not theological reasons also. To call the nation of Israel anti Christ implies there are some governments or nations that are pro Christ. The world in general is not on the side of Christ and modern day Israel is primarily a secular country.

That being said, it is not incorect to say Judaism like Islam is a false religion. Modern day Judaism is a false imitation of Mosaic Judaism which was fulfilled at the cross. Jesus even refers to their synogogues as synagogues of Satan (Rev. 2:9) in the Book of Revelation. Judaism like Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism is a anti Christ religion because of it's rejection and blasphemy against Christ (Anyone read what the Talmud says about Jesus?) That does not mean God has forgotten them. I believe a awakening will occur someday among the Jews (Rom. 11:26-31)in which they will embrace Christ but sadly that day is not here but we should pray that God's original chosen people will be enlightened by the Holy Spirit and come to Christ and be joined with Him in the Church.

 

[Grasshopper]

I support Israel for political, and not theological reasons.

Joseph Botwinick

That is where I stand as well. The problem with many is they support Israel "no matter what" for theological reasons. Modern Israel today is made up mostly of atheist and agnostics.

I believe they have no eschatological significance, but that doesn't make one anti-semetic or anti-Israel. I consider Israel an important political allie in the Middle_East. I agree they are no more anti-christ than most of the rest of the world. The problem with people like LadyEagle is they cannot separate religious Israel and political Israel. It' either all or nothing.

 

[Tim]

Originally posted by Matt Black:
Pretty much what Joseph has been saying....with just one thing to add: I think that the reason why the likes of Tim (and I hope he will forgive me for putting words into his mouth) are seen to 'single out' Israel as being 'non-Christian' (I hesitate to use the word 'anti-Christ', which is unhelpfully polemic in nature and has been so over-used that we are in danger of devaluing it in meaning)is because there seem to be so many evangelicals who are vehemently pro-Israel and the need is felt to redress the balance a bit. So, Israel has already been 'singled-out' in debate - by the pro-crowd. Is that fair comment, Tim?

Yours in Christ

Matt

Matt,

You not only put words in my mouth--you read my thoughts!

In Christ,

Tim

 

[Tim]

Originally posted by Grasshopper:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />I support Israel for political, and not theological reasons.

Joseph Botwinick

That is where I stand as well. The problem with many is they support Israel "no matter what" for theological reasons. Modern Israel today is made up mostly of atheist and agnostics.

I believe they have no eschatological significance, but that doesn't make one anti-semetic or anti-Israel. I consider Israel an important political allie in the Middle_East. I agree they are no more anti-christ than most of the rest of the world. The problem with people like LadyEagle is they cannot separate religious Israel and political Israel. It' either all or nothing. </font>[/QUOTE]I basically agree with this too.

When this subject came up recently at my church--I dared to suggest that there are also some Christian Palestinian brothers who are caught in the middle of this conflict that deserve our prayers. One man replied, "If they're Palestians, they're probably not real Christians."

It's that kind of pro-Israel imbalance that is pretty embarrassing in the American Church.

In Christ,

Tim

 

[KenH]

Originally posted by Tim:
One man replied, "If they're Palestinians, they're probably not real Christians."

Bigotry toward anyone or any group, such as that man exhibited, is unChristian. Period. Perhaps he needs to examine his own standing with God before he attempts to judge someone else's.

 

[Daniel David]

Well, we can say for certain that Israel is full of Jews that are not saved, as they continue to this day to reject their savior.

Modern day Jews do not receive blessings from God. They are only under his wrath.

You know, you would have thought that Jesus walked in a different land and preached to different people than he did with the way people exhalt the unbelieving Jews.