The nation of Israel is antichrist...

[Joseph_Botwinick]

Originally posted by Daniel David:
Well, we can say for certain that Israel is full of Jews that are not saved, as they continue to this day to reject their savior.

Yes. This is true. It is also full of Muslims, Christians, and Jews who are Christians, Palestinians who are Christians, and people of all different religions and ethnic backgrounds.

Modern day Jews do not receive blessings from God. They are only under his wrath.[/QUOTE]

I am not. I am a Jew who is saved. Of course you were talking in generalities. Certainly the same could be said of every ethnic group in the world. Modern day humans (in general) do not recieve blessings from God. They are only under his wrath. Certainly you realize that there are many Americans who are in the same boat spiritually as the modern day average Israeli who rejects Christ? Certainly you are not singling out Jews for exclusive condemnation, are you?

You know, you would have thought that Jesus walked in a different land and preached to different people than he did with the way people exhalt the unbelieving Jews. [/QUOTE]

I am sorry. I don't remember exalting unbelieving Jews because of their rejection of Christ. Perhaps you could quote me where I said that Jews who reject Christ will go to heaven? The truth is, you can't because I never said that. If you reject Christ, as I have said before, you are going to Hell regardless of whether you are Jew or not. I am willing to bet that there are probably many Baptists going to Hell along with their self righteous rejection of Christ. This is not a problem exclusive to Jews. It is pretty much universal, and to say otherwise is anti-semitic.

Joseph Botwinick

 

[Daniel David]

Joseph my friend, I wasn't implying that you do that. Ladyeagle is part of the hyperdispensational/clarencelarkinism/ciscofieldism/lewissperrychaferism movement that is out to protect Israel because they are "God's people".

Obviously, there is no difference in one's standing before God in regards to denying Christ and ethnicity.

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

Originally posted by Daniel David:
Joseph my friend, I wasn't implying that you do that.

Whew!!!!!!! I didn't think you were but wanted to make sure I clarified this so nobody would be confused. You know how things can be when you come in the middle of a thread and how most people don't read things in context.

Ladyeagle is part of the hyperdispensational/clarencelarkinism/ciscofieldism/lewissperrychaferism movement[/QUOTE]

Such big words. I am from Arkansas you know...

I think I actually understood one of those words. But at least we Arkansans know how to do a punch card ballot...

(Just Kidding).

Obviously, there is no difference in one's standing before God in regards to denying Christ and ethnicity. [/QUOTE]

We are in complete agreement there. Now, do you think we could get an amen from Tim. Or, do you think that he will stick with his anti-semitic claim that the spirit of Anti-Christ is exclusively unique to the nation of Israel and Jews?

Joseph Botwinick

 

[LadyEagle]

Modern day Jews do not receive blessings from God. They are only under his wrath.

Therefore, let's kill them all - they are Christ killers. They are anti-Christ. Let's purge them from the earth!

You have just proven the point of my original post on the other thread about Replacement Theology. And the reason I quoted Hitler there. THAT is the spirit of anti-Christ. And it is poison. But you are too shallow and self-righteous to understand it. You may have a lot of knowledge in your head, I only pray some love may seep into your heart for the Jewish people and for Catholics and even for your fellow Baptist brothers and sisters whom you ridicule.

It was a Jew Who first loved me.

And that is why I have a special love for the Jewish people.

 

[KenH]

Originally posted by LadyEagle:
It was a Jew Who first loved me.

And that is why I have a special love for the Jewish people.

Other than the fulfillment of prophecy, does it matter that Jesus in the flesh was of the Jewish race? Doesn't love God love all people of all races exactly the same - John 3:16?

 

[LadyEagle]

Yes, Ken, that is true.

But not according to DD who said: "Modern day Jews do not receive blessings from God. They are only under his wrath."

So DD doesn't believe John 3:16 either, I guess. How can anyone come to Jesus as Messiah or Saviour if they are under God's wrath?

 

[Aaron]

Originally posted by Joseph_Botwinick:
...I don't think we have to be dishonest and anti-semitic in our remarks to make that balance.

I don't think anyone here has expressed a dishonest or antisemitic sentiment.

Israel is not perfect by a long shot. But to single them out for condemnation as the foremost evil in the world or as Anti-Christs when there is just as much evil and spirit of anti-Christ right here in America, is anti-Semitic.

I think the response should be equal and opposite to the error of the other extreme. "Unbelieving Jews are still the chosen people," should be countered with, "No, they are anti-Christ."

No one says that Greeks or Chinese or Native Americans, etc. are the chosen people, (well, Joseph Smith tried to say that about the Indians, but that's another story...) so there is no need to counter with a statement as strong as anti-Christ.

Pagans oppose God out of fear, ignorance and superstition, and, generally speaking, they are not anti-Christ. The biggest part of Christians are those who are not Jewish. The Jews (generally speaking) are enlightened and still reject Him. Worse than reject, still seek to kill Him. They are anit-Christ in their doctrines, and have passages devoted to blaspheming Him. Truly, the first general persecution of the Church was not Roman.

That's not to say that Caesars and Popes are not anti-Christ. They certainly were anti-Christ in the same vein as the Jews. Notice that Psalm 2 said The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD, and against his anointed."

But generally speaking, pagans are not anit-Christ in the same manner as the Jews.

Let me cut to the chase. No doubt some ignoramus will align me with Hitler. What we call Jews or Israel today are not true Jews. This is not about nationality or race. This is about a religion which preaches that Christ has not come, and that Jesus of Nazareth was a bastard, liar and blasphemer. Paul said this emphatically:

For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Romans 2:28-29

 

[Aaron]

Originally posted by Daniel David:
LadyEagle, the church is not grafted into Israel. That doesn't make sense. You have God cutting off Israel to make the church part of Israel? Wouldn't that mean we are also cut off? Think about that post.

There has always only been one Church. Israel was the "church in the Wilderness." The unbelieving Jews were cut off from the church. The believing Gentiles were grafted in.

The Israel of God is not a political, earthly nation. The Church is the Israel of God, and has always been.

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

Originally posted by Aaron:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Joseph_Botwinick:
...I don't think we have to be dishonest and anti-semitic in our remarks to make that balance.

I don't think anyone here has expressed a dishonest or antisemitic sentiment.</font>[/QUOTE]To say that Israel and the Jews are exclusively unique in their spirit of Anti-Christ when that spirit is rampant all over the world and right here in America, is dishonest and anti-semitic. To state that Judaism was the original anti-Christ when Adam and Eve rejected Christ long before Judaism was even established as a religion or Israel was even established as a nation, is dishonest and antisemitic. And, to state that Hitler, Stalin, et al. was God's judgment against Israel for their unbelief when Hitler was in Germany, Poland and European Countries, and Stalin was in Russia and they certainly persecuted not only Jews, but Christians and other diverse groups of people is dishonest and anti-semitic, Go back and read the whole thread and you will understand what I am talking about.

Israel is not perfect by a long shot. But to single them out for condemnation as the foremost evil in the world or as Anti-Christs when there is just as much evil and spirit of anti-Christ right here in America, is anti-Semitic.

I think the response should be equal and opposite to the error of the other extreme. "Unbelieving Jews are still the chosen people," should be countered with, "No, they are anti-Christ."[/QUOTE]

In broad general terms, I agree with you here. But I still maintain that they should not be held as the exclusively unique anti-Christs in the world and that is exactly what Tim did in his earlier posts. Go back and read them. That is anti-Semitic.

No one says that Greeks or Chinese or Native Americans, etc. are the chosen people, (well, Joseph Smith tried to say that about the Indians, but that's another story...) so there is no need to counter with a statement as strong as anti-Christ.[/QUOTE]

I agree.

Pagans oppose God out of fear, ignorance and superstition, and, generally speaking, they are not anti-Christ.[/QUOTE]

They have the spirit of Anti-Christ or else they would not oppose or reject Christ. As far as I am concerned, anyone who is not for Christ is Anti-Christ. Your making excuses for lost people to make them better than Jewish people is starting to show where your heart is.

The biggest part of Christians are those who are not Jewish. The Jews (generally speaking) are enlightened and still reject Him.[/QUOTE]

This is true, just like the vast majority of Pagans, Muslims, Secular Humanists, and people all over the world of all different nationalities and religions who reject Christ. This is not an exclusively Jewish problem. It is a human problem. To say otherwise is dishonest and anti-semitic.

Worse than reject, still seek to kill Him.[/QUOTE]

This is an anti-semitic lie. They do not seek to kill him because they wrongly believe that he is already dead, just like the Muslims, the atheists, the Secular Humanists, and people of all different Non-Christian religions from all over the world do. Being anti-Christ is not a problem that is exclusive to the Jews. It is a human problem. It is sin.

They are anit-Christ in their doctrines, and have passages devoted to blaspheming Him. Truly, the first general persecution of the Church was not Roman.[/QUOTE]

So is every other non-Christian religion in the world. And yes, I do believe the first person to activley persecute the early Church was who? Oh yeah, the Apostle Paul. He didn't turn out too bad did he? Also, if my memory serves me correct, the Jews sought to persecute Christians and Jesus himself in Roman Courts. Now who was it that ordered the death sentence for Jesus? Was it Ciaphas? no? How about Annas? No? I believe it was Pilate. He was a Roman, right? Or are you going to show me some magical proof that he was Jewish also? Further, I have no doubt had Jesus or the Apostles been in America that the same outcome would have occurred eventually with our Anti-Christ society and their boldness for Christ in public places clashing head on. You think the spirit of Anti-Christ is exclusive to Israel? You better think again.

That's not to say that Caesars and Popes are not anti-Christ. They certainly were anti-Christ in the same vein as the Jews. Notice that Psalm 2 said The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD, and against his anointed."

But generally speaking, pagans are not anit-Christ in the same manner as the Jews.

Let me cut to the chase. No doubt some ignoramus will align me with Hitler. What we call Jews or Israel today are not true Jews. This is not about nationality or race. This is about a religion which preaches that Christ has not come, and that Jesus of Nazareth was a bastard, liar and blasphemer. Paul said this emphatically:

For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Romans 2:28-29

[/QUOTE]

I don't know Aaron. I know that we have locked horns in the past and have also had friendly conversations. I still consider you a friend, but yes, on the other hand, if you think that the spirit of Anti-Christ is exclusive to Israel and the Jews, I would have to say you are anti-Semitic and I hope you repent of your hatred for an entire nation and race of people. It really isn't becoming of a Christian.

Joseph Botwinick

 

[Tim]

JB,

I think you're demonstrating that you're oversensitive on this issue, because you are reading into my statements an antisemetism that simply is not there.

I said that Israel was unique among modern nations in protecting and promoting Judaism--a religion which was the first anti-Christ religion.

This is simply a matter of fact. I never said they were unique among nations in harboring a spirit of antichrist. Islamic and Communist nations are more vehemently antichristian. But I still maintain that the USA is less antichristian becuase no government policy explicitly forbids Christians to evangelize, while such regulations do exist in Israel.

Judaism by virtue of its history was the first antichristian religion. People did not conciously reject Christ in the O.T. He had to be revealed first as the Son of God--the express image of the Father. That happened first among the Jews, and the Pharisees led the way in rejecting Him. Their writings against Jesus are now part of the tradition of Judaism.

Be accurate before you start accusing people of antisemetism. Otherwise you lose your credibility when real antisemetism rears its ugly head.

In Christ,

Tim

 

[Tim]

LE,

Modern day Jews are no more guilty of killing Christ than I am guilty of selling slaves.

We are not responsible for the sins of our ancestors.

I've consistently maintained this posostion on BB through the years. But of course it is necessary to caricature my position in order to make it seem hideously evil.

Tim

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

Originally posted by Tim:
JB,

I think you're demonstrating that you're oversensitive on this issue, because you are reading into my statements an antisemetism that simply is not there.

You are partially correct here. I am oversensitive when I see clear anti-semitism as you have demonstrated here.

I said that Israel was unique among modern nations in protecting and promoting Judaism--a religion which was the first anti-Christ religion.[/QUOTE]

This is false. Adam and Eve rejected Christ long before the nation of Israel was ever established and Judaism was ever a religion. You do still believe that Christ is God, right?

This is simply a matter of fact. I never said they were unique among nations in harboring a spirit of antichrist. Islamic and Communist nations are more vehemently antichristian. But I still maintain that the USA is less antichristian becuase no government policy explicitly forbids Christians to evangelize, while such regulations do exist in Israel.[/QUOTE]

This is untrue also. Secular Humanism and Atheism are taught in public schools while Christianity is Forbotten. There are also examples here lately where California schools are teaching the tenets of Islam while Christianity is still forbotten. I am not allowed to go into a public place and preach the Gospel and yet, someone else can go there and espouse secular humanism, praise Islam as a religion of Peace, and promote atheism. Sounds almost like the same reason Paul and the other apostles got in trouble by the Jews in the 1st century for boldly proclaiming the Gospel in public places, don't you think?

Judaism by virtue of its history was the first antichristian religion. People did not conciously reject Christ in the O.T. He had to be revealed first as the Son of God--the express image of the Father. That happened first among the Jews, and the Pharisees led the way in rejecting Him. Their writings against Jesus are now part of the tradition of Judaism. [/QUOTE]

This is untrue since Jesus and God and also because Paul says we are all without excuse if we reject God.

Be accurate before you start accusing people of antisemetism. Otherwise you lose your credibility when real antisemetism rears its ugly head.

In Christ,

Tim [/QUOTE]

You seem to want to hold me to a higher standard of accuracy than you hold for yourself when talking about Jews. Is that part of your anti-semitic mentality coming to the forefront.

Joseph Botwinick

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

Originally posted by Tim:
LE,

Modern day Jews are no more guilty of killing Christ than I am guilty of selling slaves.

We are not responsible for the sins of our ancestors.

I've consistently maintained this posostion on BB through the years. But of course it is necessary to caricature my position in order to make it seem hideously evil.

Tim

Tim,

I agree. Now, Aaron, do you agree that modern Jews are not responsible for Jesus' death anymore than we are responsible for slavery?

This ought to be good.

Joseph Botwinick

 

[Daniel David]

Originally posted by LadyEagle:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Modern day Jews do not receive blessings from God. They are only under his wrath.

Therefore, let's kill them all - they are Christ killers. They are anti-Christ. Let's purge them from the earth!</font>[/QUOTE]Let us just stick with the discussion instead of just using a bunch of misplaced emotionalism.

SINCE THEY ARE WITHOUT CHRIST, they must be evangelized. Who said anything about killing them? How reprehensible that you would even suggest that! I never said anything of the sort.

You don't understand replacement theology. I am very opposed to it. I am a dispensationalist.

You are the one who are totally missed the point of this thread, and ignores the clear testimony of Christ and his apostles about any Jew who rejects Christ. John said that those who deny who he is, has the spirit of antichrist. You have to worm your way around his statement to cling to this perverted form of dispensationalism.

 

[Daniel David]

Originally posted by LadyEagle:
Yes, Ken, that is true.

But not according to DD who said: "Modern day Jews do not receive blessings from God. They are only under his wrath."

Yes, Ladyeagle, those Jews who reject Christ are under his wrath. They have no blessings except what is true for all people (life, breath, rain, etc.). Since this is a thread about the MAJORITY OF THE NATION OF ISRAEL, I would expect you to stick to the discussion and not your bias.

 

[LadyEagle]

DD: You don't understand replacement theology.

What is your definition of replacement theology?

 

[Tim]

I simply consider Jews and Gentiles as equal before God. When Jews defy Christ, they are every bit as accountable as Gentiles who do so. I play no favorites because the N.T. makes it clear that God does not play favorites under the conditions of the New Covenant.

According to some--this makes me antisemetic!

Go figure.

Tim

 

[Tim]

JB,

Remember--no one is compelled to sit under the humanist teaching of a public school.

Since when can't you share the gospel legally in America?

A Jew living in America is far more likely to hear the gospel of Jesus Christ than a Jew living in Israel--Surely you would concede that. We have greater freedom of religion here.

In Christ,

Tim

 

[Aaron]

Aaron:

The Jews (generally speaking) are enlightened and still reject Him. Worse than reject, still seek to kill Him. They are anit-Christ in their doctrines, and have passages devoted to blaspheming Him.

Joseph:

...Jews are not responsible for Jesus' death anymore than we are responsible for slavery...

If I approved of slavery as it existed in America, then I make myself just as much a transgressor as those who handled the whip.

If I approve of the blasphemous appraisals of Christ and His character, then I make myself as guilty as those who delivered Him to Pilate.

It is not only those who do such things that are guilty, but also those who approve of them, Rom. 1:32.

It should go without saying that when I speak of Jews I speak of those who adhere to Judaism. My meaning is NOT that modern Hebrew people (the race) are trying to kill Christ, but that the doctrines of Judaism kill Christ afresh and hold Him to an open shame.

This will be my last post in this thread.

 

[Johnv]

Originally posted by Tim:
Modern day Jews are no more guilty of killing Christ than I am guilty of selling slaves.

We are not responsible for the sins of our ancestors.

AMEN!!!