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Featured The P in T.U.L.I.P

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by Barry Johnson, Jun 15, 2020.

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  1. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    28 Come unto me, all ye that labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
    29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
    30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light. Mt 11
     
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  2. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Yes, and he also stated have to be willing to take up our Cross daily!
     
  3. Noah Hirsch

    Noah Hirsch Active Member

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    There are different doctrines that are called "Lordship Salvation." In order to answer the question whether or not the Perseverance of the Saints teaches a form of Lordship Salvation I need to know what you mean by Lordship Salvation. The Perseverance of the Saints certainly does not teach any certain of justification by works or man's own duties. We understand that we are not our own saviors, and do not save ourselves by our own works or efforts.

    But in order to understand the doctrine of the Perseverance of the Saints consider the explanation of it given in the Westminster Confession of Faith:

    Chapter XVII
    Of Perseverance of the Saints​

    I. They, whom God has accepted in His Beloved, effectually called, and sanctified by His Spirit, can neither totally nor finally fall away from the state of grace, but shall certainly persevere therein to the end, and be eternally saved.

    II. This perseverance of the saints depends not upon their own free will, but upon the immutability of the degree of election, flowing from the free and unchangeable love of God the Father; upon the efficacy of the merit and intercession of Jesus Christ, the abiding of the Spirit, and of the seed of God within them, and the nature of the covenant of grace: from all which arises also the certainty and infallibility thereof.

    III. Nevertheless, they may, through the temptations of Satan and of the world, the prevalency of corruption remaining in them, and the neglect of the means of their preservation, fall into grievous sins; and, for a time, continue therein: whereby they incur God's displeasure, and grieve His Holy Spirit, come to be deprived of some measure of their graces and comforts, have their hearts hardened, and their consciences wounded; hurt and scandalize others, and bring temporal judgments upon themselves.

    Consider also what it says on the doctrine of the Assurance of Salvation:

    Chapter XVIII
    Of Assurance of Grace and Salvation
    I. Although hypocrites and other unregenerate men may vainly deceive themselves with false hopes and carnal presumptions of being in the favor of God, and estate of salvation (which hope of theirs shall perish): yet such as truly believe in the Lord Jesus, and love Him in sincerity, endeavouring to walk in all good conscience before Him, may, in this life, be certainly assured that they are in the state of grace, and may rejoice in the hope of the glory of god, which hope shall never make them ashamed.

    But I will need to know what doctrine it is you oppose under the name "Lordship Salvation" in order to say whether or not the Perseverance of the Saints teaches a form of Lordship Salvation.
     
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  4. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    The "P" refers to the fact once a person is saved, they remain saved forever and cannot lose, either by their action or the action of others, their salvation. However, some take the "P" further and say a born anew believer cannot backside, or engage in unfruitful ministry. I think their idea is that their "God gifted faith" causes them to never backslide or engage in unfruitful ministry. But one place were most agree is those who go out from us (folks that professed belief, and then went their own way) were never of us (never actually born anew.)
     
  5. Noah Hirsch

    Noah Hirsch Active Member

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    There is a difference between saying that a born again believer cannot backslide and saying that he "...can neither totally nor finally fall away from the state of grace, but shall certainly persevere therein to the end, and be eternally saved." (The Westminster Confession of Faith, Chap. XVII: Of the Perseverance of the Saints, paragraph I) Backsliding is not either totally or finally falling away from the faith. Why is it that we confess that the true believer can neither totally nor finally fall away? It is because we believe that the true believer does backslide in his faith, and do recognize the possibility of what may be termed "a partial apostasy" as distinct from a total apostasy from the faith. We say that they cannot finally fall away, and so acknowledge that though believers may fall into many sins and backslide, yet they do return to repentance and faith, that they will not die in a state of unrepentant willful sin.

    It says in the Canons of Dort, "...God preserves in those saints when they fall the imperishable seed from which they have been born again, lest it perish or be dislodged. Secondly, by his Word and Spirit God certainly and effectively renews them to repentance so that they have a heartfelt and godly sorrow for the sins they have committed; seek and obtain, through faith and with a contrite, forgiveness in the blood of the Mediator; experience again the grace of a reconciled God; through faith adore God's mercies; and from then on more eagerly work out their own salvation with fear and trembling." (The Fifth Main Point of Doctrine: the Perseverance of the Saints, Article 7: Renewal to Repentance)
     
  6. 1689Dave

    1689Dave Well-Known Member

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    If Calvin did not believe in limited atonement. As many claim, the P was a perfect fit for universal works-oriented atonement. So it doesn't match Dort's L. That's why I'm points 1-3 only with a modified 4 & 5.
     
  7. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    As with all things Calvinistic, their actual doctrine is denied. Their actual view is the actual saints do not backslide (or backslide for long) because their God Gifted Faith protects and restores them. So those professing Christians that do backslide and do not repent in short order were never actually saved. Contrary to this Calvinistic assertion, scripture teaches that some lose their way for an extended period before they "come to their senses."
     
  8. Noah Hirsch

    Noah Hirsch Active Member

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    We do not believe that a true believer cannot go on in some scandalous sin for sometime good amount of time before he comes to his senses. We have the example of David. We do not deny that he went for a while and not just a sort time in his sin without repenting of his adultery. Having committed adultery with Bathsheba, then he later had her husband murdered. We however, also acknowledge that He eventually did repent. According to the doctrine of the Perseverance of the Saints though he did so go on in this his unrepented sin for a substantial period of time, yet he was never void of the seed of God or some measure of faith during that time of his unrepentance. His apostasy was not such that he had no measure of faith during his impenitency. He never came to the point of a total apostasy, nor yet could it be that such an elect person could die in final apostasy in unrepentant willful sin.
     
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  9. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    No one said or suggested those born anew could somehow "lose" their position in Christ. And of course, once God credits a person's faith as righteousness, and places them in Christ where they are "born anew" God protects their faith.
    So the issue is not "no measure of faith" but for how long the P asserts a person could be born anew and go without any outward evidence of faith. For you to suggest the P allows to an extended period is again to run away from the actual Calvinist doctrine.
    Consider a backslider who dies while exhibiting no evidence of faith. What is the Calvinist view since those born anew persevere to the end?
     
  10. Noah Hirsch

    Noah Hirsch Active Member

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    David although he went on in his sin for a good amount of time did not die in ongoing unrepentant willful sin. If someone dies in a state of unrepentance he will perish. However, it is important also to take into consideration the words of the Psalmist: "Who can discern his errors? Clear thou me from hidden faults." (Psalm 19:12 ASV) We do recognize that there may be sins of ignorance unrepented of at one's deathbed. We deny that one can deny in willful unrepentant sin.

    I would recommend for your perusal the seventh chapter of Remarks on Important Theological Controversies by Jonathan Edwards. It is the one on the doctrine of the Perseverance of the Saints. Jonathan Edwards: Works of Jonathan Edwards, Volume Two - Christian Classics Ethereal Library
     
  11. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    To suggest my view of the P somehow needs work is ludicrous. Your "If someone dies in a state of unrepentance he will perish" underlines the difference between "OSAS" and some of the "P" views held by Calvinists. And I know the usual dodge, the born anew would never be truly unrepentant. I am firmly on the OSAS side, and will make no judgments as to the salvation of a professing Christ who happened to be in an apparent backslidden state when he or she died. Scripture tells us God will sort that out.
     
  12. Noah Hirsch

    Noah Hirsch Active Member

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    Are the threatenings of God promises or mere threatenings that He promises in Scripture without any intent to execute them on the ungodly?
     
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  13. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    I tend to see those types as ones "saved as if by fire"
     
  14. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Yet another ludicrous misquote of scripture. To suggest my view of the P somehow needs work is ludicrous. Your "If someone dies in a state of unrepentance he will perish" underlines the difference between "OSAS" and some of the "P" views held by Calvinists. And I know the usual dodge, the born anew would never be truly unrepentant. I am firmly on the OSAS side, and will make no judgments as to the salvation of a professing Christ who happened to be in an apparent backslidden state when he or she died. Scripture tells us God will sort that out.
     
  15. Noah Hirsch

    Noah Hirsch Active Member

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    How do you define a "backslidden state?"
     
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  16. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    In a state of behavior where no external evidence can be seen by others as to their love and devotion to Christ.
    So a professing Christian who was never saved would appear to be in a "backslidden state" but the actual state is unsaved.
    OTOH, a professing Christ who is indeed born anew might appear to be in a backslidden state, but never the less will enter heaven, but as one escaping from a fire.
     
  17. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    I clicked on the link, way too long, just copy and paste the relevant part, or present a brief summary.
     
  18. Calminian

    Calminian Well-Known Member
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    No.
     
  19. Calminian

    Calminian Well-Known Member
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    I recommend treading the book of 1John. I suggest sitting down while you read it.
     
  20. Calminian

    Calminian Well-Known Member
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    Confirmed and conformed to the image of Christ. God predestined all believers to this.
     
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