1. Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

The place of women in the Church

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by stilllearning, Sep 23, 2010.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. John Toppass

    John Toppass Active Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2008
    Messages:
    1,080
    Likes Received:
    8
    quote the whole and not a part so as to mislead the subject which was on deacons. Now I remember the reason you were on a deserved ignore.
     
  2. Crabtownboy

    Crabtownboy Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2008
    Messages:
    18,441
    Likes Received:
    259
    Faith:
    Baptist
    This splitting of hairs just does not make it. At this time in the early church history there were no church buildings as we know them today. They met in homes. The home was the church and the church [building] was the home. In your example the church assembly may not be there but the teaching is just as legitimate. It does not logically follow that Sunday School in the church building is not church because the entire assembly is not there.

    I really believe Paul was not giving a general order. He was speaking to a specific problem within the church at Corinth. That church caused him more problems than all the other combined. As I mentioned in an earlier post Clement of Rome talked about the problems of the church at Corinth 50 years later and how they were still having problems there. Also we must always remember that Paul said that sometimes he words are from God and sometimes they are not. In this case he does not say, so we can interpret them as his opinion. After all he grew up in Synagogues where women were not allowed to speak and he was a Pharisee. Or we can interpret them as words from God. As he does not say a person's take on them is an unprovable article of faith.


     
  3. Jerome

    Jerome Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2006
    Messages:
    9,788
    Likes Received:
    698
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Annsni, thanks for the heads up on Anne Graham Lotz. I had wondered how your gender-role views squared with her speaking at your church.
     
  4. Crabtownboy

    Crabtownboy Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2008
    Messages:
    18,441
    Likes Received:
    259
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Seems to me it is always dangerous to try to put limits on God. It doesn't work. He is always ahead of us and just won't let himself be put in a theological box.
     
  5. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    May 14, 2001
    Messages:
    26,977
    Likes Received:
    2,536
    Faith:
    Baptist
    1 Corinthians 14:34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.

    I always think of Deborah and Huldah when this issue presents itself because it appears that they are exceptions to this mandate of the law to which Paul appeals.​

    2 Kings 22:14 So Hilkiah the priest, and Ahikam, and Achbor, and Shaphan, and Asahiah, went unto Huldah the prophetess, the wife of Shallum the son of Tikvah, the son of Harhas, keeper of the wardrobe; (now she dwelt in Jerusalem in the college and they communed with her).​

    Judges 4:4 And Deborah, a prophetess, the wife of Lapidoth, she judged Israel at that time.​

    Both of these women were married and presumably in subjection to their husbands.

    Deborah also held the "office" of judge as well as being a prophetess.
    both of these women had a lot to say to the male leadership at their own request.

    Paul also speaks of women praying or prophesying in the church.

    1 Corinthians 11
    5 But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with her head uncovered dishonoureth her head: for that is even all one as if she were shaven.​

    In verse 16 he puts it in the context of the church​

    So the essence of the whole issue seems to be that women not usurp the authority of men in the service of God.

    So, does it mean that we have to put a piece of duct tape over their lips when they come into the church?​

    Can female missionaries (either singe or married) come to a supporting or home church to give a report to the church concerning their work or the shared work of their husband? I dare say most churches allow this.​

    If the pastor and deacons allow it and they are sitting there as well, then she has not usurped their authority and is in fact being obedient to their request to give such a report.​

    Can women give a testimony in the church?
    Do we allow them to pray aloud at prayer meetings?
    Do they remain silent when the hymns are being sung?
    Can women participate in a dialogue type Sunday School lesson?
    Can they give a report at the annual meeting?
    Can they teach other women and children?

    I think our actions show that we understand what Paul is saying and that he is disallowing women the formal role of "preacher/teacher" of men.

    And even then (under the law to which he appeals) when Israel's men were cowering in fear, God shamed them into action by putting women into the role of prophets and judges.

    No, it is not the place for women to speak as the oracle of God or assume the role of pastor in the church, but obviously we allow them several forms of speaking/teaching/communicating in spite of what some of us insist upon as the teaching of "silence" in the churches..

    If we went by the 'letter'; "Let your women keep silence in the churches" then, as I said, we would have to put duct tape on their mouths upon entering the church building.

    HankD​
     
  6. annsni

    annsni Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    May 30, 2006
    Messages:
    20,914
    Likes Received:
    706
    I very much enjoyed working with Anne and she was such a sweet and gracious guest - and a very gifted speaker. I would have been much more comfortable had she been preaching to just the woman, though.
     
  7. annsni

    annsni Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    May 30, 2006
    Messages:
    20,914
    Likes Received:
    706
    Unless He himself put the limits and "theological box" there.
     
  8. annsni

    annsni Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    May 30, 2006
    Messages:
    20,914
    Likes Received:
    706
    Amen. :thumbsup:
     
  9. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    May 14, 2001
    Messages:
    26,977
    Likes Received:
    2,536
    Faith:
    Baptist
    To what ann?
    Putting duct tape on their mouths?

    :laugh:

    HankD
     
  10. Dr. Bob

    Dr. Bob Administrator
    Administrator

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2000
    Messages:
    30,285
    Likes Received:
    507
    Faith:
    Baptist
    This will soon hit the 10 page limit, but always need to remind folks that ANY PART can be used to start a NEW THREAD. Please do so.

    BTW, Phoebe in Rom 16:1 served as a deacon (use of proper masculine noun that describes the office). Not a deaconess (simply a female serving the assembly). Lots of folks don't realize this and thought it important to add to the discussion.

    Remember, 99.9% of the church structure was based on Judaism. In the synagogue, a sh'mash was the "servant" (Hebrew word = same as deacon in Greek). Set up scrolls, lights, mundane physical needs of the body. Women served in that role. Only men, of course, could serve as elders.
     
  11. annsni

    annsni Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    May 30, 2006
    Messages:
    20,914
    Likes Received:
    706
    Only if it matches their jumpers.
     
  12. Peggy

    Peggy New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 27, 2009
    Messages:
    285
    Likes Received:
    0
    Here's my 2 cents.

    I don't believe that women should be in the ordained ministry as pastors. I don't think that women should be elders. I do believe in the offices of deacon and deaconess. I don't think that women should not be allowed to vote. I do think that women should be allowed to teach. You can't say that women of your congregation do not have any intelligence or words of wisdom to offer both men and women.

    For example, would you allow Corrie Ten Boom to speak or teach in your church? I think she would have something to say about faith and perseverance in the face of the most horrible persecution imaginable.
     
  13. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    May 14, 2001
    Messages:
    26,977
    Likes Received:
    2,536
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Oh yes, I've seen the multi-colored duct tape at WalMart and I wondered what it was for.

    HankD
     
  14. Mexdeaf

    Mexdeaf New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 14, 2005
    Messages:
    7,051
    Likes Received:
    3
    That's for making those inventive 'duct-tape dresses'. Personally I think they are tacky- especially if you wear them out in the sun too long.:smilewinkgrin:
     
  15. Alive in Christ

    Alive in Christ New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 22, 2008
    Messages:
    3,822
    Likes Received:
    1
    Actually the priciple of mutual submission (by women, men, those in authority, those not in authority, etc etc) is found many places in the scriptures, but...interestingly...It shows up very prominantly just above the the passage that deals with the wife submitting...

    Ephesians 5, 18-21


    With that passage (and others) in mind, clearly, the man should only take the lead when he and his wife can not come to a decision through normal equality based discussion.


    Hope that helps.
     
    #95 Alive in Christ, Sep 25, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 25, 2010
  16. John Toppass

    John Toppass Active Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2008
    Messages:
    1,080
    Likes Received:
    8
    Appreciate your input, but I will stick to what the scripture says and not what I wish it would say.
     
  17. stilllearning

    stilllearning Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2008
    Messages:
    1,814
    Likes Received:
    2
    Hi Peggy

    You asked..........
    That’s a big fat NO!

    I am just a Christian, reminding all of us how much of a blessing it is, to follow the Bible’s instructions.
     
  18. SaggyWoman

    SaggyWoman Active Member

    Joined:
    Dec 15, 2000
    Messages:
    17,933
    Likes Received:
    10
    Oh, we got to wear dresses and be silent, too?? Come on now.
     
  19. tinytim

    tinytim <img src =/tim2.jpg>

    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2003
    Messages:
    11,250
    Likes Received:
    0
    Ann and Saggy... SHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! You're being tooo loud!!!!
     
  20. annsni

    annsni Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    May 30, 2006
    Messages:
    20,914
    Likes Received:
    706
    You KNOW the Bible says that. We need to wear shapeless jumpers that go to our ankles and show no womanly figure at all. Socks and ugly black shoes to go with it perfects the look. Finally we need to have hair all the way down our backs but we MUST put it up in a bun and cover it because it's only for our husbands to enjoy - everyone else must think that it's ugly. Oh - one more thing - make-up is a no-no. It doesn't matter if your skin is all red and blotchy, you have bags under your eyes that could take a week's worth of laundry or if you have no lashes. God made you that way and you're beautiful.

    THAT is the official "perfect, godly woman" look. :)
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
Loading...