What I find missing in all the comments about the allusion to the potter in Romans 9 is the obvious referral to Jeremiah 18.
"Jeremiah 18
1 This is the word that came to Jeremiah from the Lord : 2 "Go down to the potter's house, and there I will give you my message." 3 So I went down to the potter's house, and I saw him working at the wheel. 4 But the pot he was shaping from the clay was marred in his hands; so the potter formed it into another pot, shaping it as seemed best to him.
5 Then the word of the Lord came to me: 6 "O house of Israel, can I not do with you as this potter does?" declares the Lord . "Like clay in the hand of the potter, so are you in my hand, O house of Israel. 7 If at any time I announce that a nation or kingdom is to be uprooted, torn down and destroyed, 8 and if that nation I warned repents of its evil, then I will relent and not inflict on it the disaster I had planned. 9 And if at another time I announce that a nation or kingdom is to be built up and planted, 10 and if it does evil in my sight and does not obey me, then I will reconsider the good I had intended to do for it."
So it seems that the potter, who is sovereign, makes the pot based upon the response of man. God is sovereign enough to allow man a chance to repent or do evil. Compare with Romans 9:21, "Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?" It seems that what God makes depends upon the response of man, comparing Scripture with Scripture, right?
Comments?
[ July 15, 2002, 07:15 PM: Message edited by: ScottEmerson ]
The Potter's Wheel
Discussion in '2000-02 Archive' started by ScottEmerson, Jul 15, 2002.
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Apparently, you are confusing God's sovereignty with the means He uses. Apparently, you think if God uses means to carry out His sovereign will then He has given up part of His sovereignty to man. Not so.
Please read the passage in Jeremiah in context with the whole Bible.
One in the hands of the Potter,
Ken
Were it not for grace...
[ July 15, 2002, 10:30 PM: Message edited by: Ken Hamilton ] -
Because it's awfully clear what Jeremiah meant in the passage. -
ScottEmerson said:
If God grants total freedom to mankind, then He is no longer sovereign. There is absolutely no logical alternative. He might have been sovereign prior to giving freedom to mankind, but that sovereignty would have been ceded the moment He gave mankind the ability to make their own choices. Think about it. How on earth could God have guided history to the Incarnation and the fulfillment of the OT prophecies related to it if He doesn't have the ability to control mankind's choices. The only alternative you're left with is that He had to sit idly by waiting for an opportune moment to send His Son, one when it just so happened that the couple pregnant with Him was in Bethlehem where He was supposed to be born; crucifixion, the prophesied method for Him to die, just happened to be the standard method of execution of the day; His propehesied messenger just happened to be born immediately before Him; the Roman empire just happened to be in power at the time; the prophesied 70 weeks of Daniel just happened to be ending at that time, etc. I could go on and on because there are literally hundreds of prophecies that He fulfilled that, according to the Semi-Pelagians, would had to have been the result of the random decisions of free humanity. If you reply that God intervened to guide certain events toward this destiny, then you have conceded that mankind has no such thing as free will. Even if you attempt to argue that God isn't actively intervening in every moment of time, the mere potential to intervene still abolishes any kind of freedom for mankind. For if God can intervene into your life at any moment to stop you from doing something or to change the course of your life, even if He isn't doing that at this moment, you are not free! So there is no way to have it both ways. You cannot say that God is sovereign, yet He has given mankind free will because the two concepts are mutually exclusive. -
If as you say, sovereignty is all or nothing, you've concluded that God is the cause of all things. If we believe that God wills everything, good or bad, to happen to us, gives us some temporary relief from confusion and condemnation, but in the long-term, it slanders God, hinders our trust in God and leads to passiveness.
God is sovereign in the sense that He is paramount and supreme (since we're using definitions, that one is in the dictionary). There is no one higher in authority or power, but that does not mean He exercises His power by controlling everything in our lives. God has given us the freedom to choose. He has a plan for us. He seeks to reveal that plan to us and urge us in that direction, but we choose. He doesn't make our choices for us.
How about this - can you (or anyone) provide conclusive Scripture that favors your interpretation over mine? I've shown you the passage in Jeremiah that shows God's plan is based upon how His people respond. I'll also add "GOd is not willing that anyone should perish" and when he told Moses that he would spare the Israelites for Moses' sake. Such examples clearly show God in complete power, in complete supremecy, but who still has a relationship with His servants.
(It is not a logical contradiction to state that God's allowing man a free choice can somehow cut into the sovereignty of God. If you simply examine the parable of the wicked servant who was forgiven when he begged for the chance to repay and then punished when he didn't forgive his brother - Can you not see a king who exercises complete sovereignty there? "So shall my Heavenly father be if you do not forgive your brother from your heart.") -
God does not will that sinners commit evil nor does He will that Christians sin. If He did we would not have been told that God does not even tempt humankind with evil. [James 1:13d] People are tempted when they are drawn away when enticed by the Evil One.
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Baptist Believer Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
1.) We do *not* say that God steps aside and lets human beings run the show and God waits passively nearby. God is active in His creation and is constantly at work in the affairs of humankind.
2.) We do *not* say that human beings have the ability to do anything they want without the possibility of running into the restraining hand of God. Have you ever wondered why we haven't had a nuclear war yet? The devices to do it have been around for 50 years. I'm fairly sure God has restrained evildoers from launching nuclear attacks because it is not appropriate for God's purposes. I believe that God often frustrates the plans of the wicked -- He doesn't remove their free will, but he makes it so guns misfire, appointments are missed, and conspiratorial plans are misunderstood.
God can bring prophecies to fulfillment without human cooperation, but at the same time, God has His people listening and obeying Him more than we probably realize. When we are obedient to the Spirit of God, we are helping God accomplish His purposes in the world.
I'm a big guy and have the ability to beat up a lot of people I don't particularly like. What stops me from doing it (besides the police)? It is not in my character, it is not an interest of mine, and I recognize that even people I don't like have a right to be jerks without having to worry about me attacking them.
But I also used to work for a private school where I and a team of others were responsible for protecting the children from kidnappers (there were some ultra-wealthy families that had their children at the school). If anyone were to try to threaten or harm the children, I would have taken them down swiftly and potently. If they threatened a life, we might have to end theirs.
I have no interest in controlling other people or being mean, but when it comes to protecting the innocent, my attitude changes very quickly. In a similar way, even though He has the power, God often does not act, even when innocent people suffer, because He has purposes and plans I don't understand. But sometimes God does act although we don't necessarily see His hand moving.
[ July 17, 2002, 02:16 AM: Message edited by: Baptist Believer ] -
One redeemed by Christ's blood,
Ken
Were it not for grace... -
One redeemed by Christ's blood,
Ken
Were it not for grace...</font>[/QUOTE]"The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance."
Looks universal...
We can't say "you" means "the people who are coming to repentence," as the "you" is already saved. Where is this context?
Why do people want to limit the scope of Christ's salvation? (more of a hypothetical question we Arminians ask ourselves) -
Nice post to open the thread ScottEmerson. I look forward to a direct response to it from someone who disagrees with your position.
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The way that Irresistible Grace got established was through St. Augustine. Dr. Geisler in his book "Chosen But Free" offers this missed truth. Here is his quote.
' . . . the extreme Calvinist view is an historic anomaly, having the support of the late Augustine as the only significant voice before the Reformation. This it calls a 'mature' view when it does not grow out of any significant position in church history before it but is based on an overreaction against a schismatic group (the Donatists) forced to believe in the doctrine of the Catholic Church against their choice.'
Study Augustine's troubles with the Donatists. Irresistible Grace does not have such a noble beginning. -
Sovereignty is correct in the matter of salvation. Christ has sovereignly decided in eternity past that He ' . . . wishes all men to be saved, and to come to the knowledge of the truth.' [I Timothy 2:4]
Life is our probationary period. Will we invite Christ in or will we remain in our depraved and lost condition alienated from the Presence of God. -
tyndale1946 Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
Ray Berrian said:
[ July 19, 2002, 12:33 AM: Message edited by: tyndale1946 ] -
[ July 19, 2002, 12:36 AM: Message edited by: Primitive Baptist ] -
Have you read the Septuagint?
It says the pot 'fell' rather than it was marred.
I always find it intriguing when the Septuagint varies from the Masoretic. To me that hints at the passage being rather 'hard'. The Septuagint often seems to 'soften' a tricky passage, imo...
Kinda like Matthew takes Jesus' tricky words to the rich man that sound almost like he's denying it when he is called 'good', and softens them somewhat. (imo)
[It doesn't matter; in those days it wasn't a big deal, evidently, whether you quoted someone's words exactly - even if they were Jesus' words]
Anyway I think either version of that Jeremiah verse is intriguingly mysterious. I mean, how could a pot be marred in God's perfect hands? How could it fall? Nothing can snatch us from His hands...
Fwiw, this element of mystery in the OT text - or so it seems to me - is not often present when Calvinists discuss Romans 9.
AITB -
tyndale1946 Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
AITB said:
John 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day... Brother Glen -
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"Woe to him who quarrels with his Maker,
to him who is but a potsherd among the potsherds on the ground.
Does the clay say to the potter,
'What are you making?'
Does your work say,
'He has no hands'? -
[ July 20, 2002, 11:39 AM: Message edited by: Eric B ]
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