I have to say that's a bit pathetic. What is it about the words 'Debate Forum' that you don't understand? I haven't the least intention of buying the book so you need to summarize what it's saying and debate it-- interact with what some of us have written and explain to us how we are misusing the Scriptures. Otherwise you're just spamming.
The "Sons of God" issue has been settled. Did you get the memo?
Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Buckethead Baptist, Apr 21, 2017.
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Martin Marprelate Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
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Books & Publications Forum
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Does anyone think, at some point in time in the past and you can begin with yesterday if you want, did the devil, called Satan or the adversary if you prefer ascend from the earth into heaven with the purpose of taking the throne of God for himself?
If you think yes, when?
If you think yes, do you think he did this alone or with other spirit beings?
Do you think they were cast back to the earth? When?
Hebrews 2:3 How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him;
Was the great salvation that was first begun to be spoken by the Lord, the gospel of the kingdom of God?
Hebrews 2:5 For unto the angels hath he not put in subjection the world to come, whereof we speak.
Does that imply that either this present world (whatever that means) or some previous world is and or was subjected to angels (good and or bad)? IMHO it is the world of Genesis 1-6 and beyond.
There are many references to this ie Sodom and when Daniel prayed and the angel was hindered in coming for he had to battle with another angel with the prince (demon I believe) of Persia. Also the body of Moses being fought over.
Eph 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world (age), against spiritual wickedness in high places.
Who was Eve wrestling with? The ruler of [ and darkness was upon the face of the deep]
Why was the woman taken from the man? So that> For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ. 2 Cor 4:6 Gen 3:15 Gal 4:4 why? verse 5.
I say it is because of the ruler of darkness God laid the foundation of the world to manifest his Son born of woman to destroy the ruler of darkness and his works.
From Adam to Christ, the death of the Christ and then Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. -
If you need any help concerning quoting procedure, let me know, I'll be glad to help.
And we will get to that.
Buckethead Baptist said: ↑I would think that Yahweh God would be exceptionally upset with it enough to destroy the offspring.Click to expand...
Minor Premise: The ESV says a "Divine Council" is in view;
Major Premise: "Basically... these are the same guys of Genesis 6."
Conclusion: Angels are in view and they intermingled with humanity and produced offspring.
There is no way to come to the conclusion that anyone other than men are in view in Psalm 82.
Again, we will get to that.
Buckethead Baptist said: ↑Normal ruling men taking women at their whim does not provoke God into acts of global judgement.Click to expand...
Genesis 6
King James Version (KJV)
3 And the Lord said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.
5 And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
6 And it repented the Lord that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.
Not a single thing mentioned about Angels, Demons, or any other created being, just...Man.
So let's look at your statement again:
Buckethead Baptist said: ↑Normal ruling men taking women at their whim does not provoke God into acts of global judgement.Click to expand...
How they rule has always been important.
Secondly, rulers taking at whim women from the general population is tantamount to rape. I think that fits well with "every imagination of his heart was only evil continually.
Lastly, it is not just one act of sin in view concerning the destruction of the world then, it is man's condition as a whole, and all of his sin. We might view this as the "straw that broke the camel's back," so to speak.
Buckethead Baptist said: ↑Darrell C said: ↑It is Man, not Angels, with whom God is not pleased. God is Just so it makes little sense to find God exacting penalty for something that is the result of Angels' actions. The resulting offspring also become notable.
It also seems as though the "giants" precede the coming in of the sons of God unto the daughters of men.Click to expand...Click to expand...
It doesn't help me, BHB, if I am in error and you just tell me I am. You need to show me, or anyone else you perceive as in error.
Buckethead Baptist said: ↑Darrell C said: ↑We see the concept of "sons of God" here...Click to expand...Click to expand...
;)
Buckethead Baptist said: ↑Exactly... you are very correct. In fact this is the section of scripture that inspired Heiser to undertake this work.Click to expand...
Buckethead Baptist said: ↑However... you may want to examine it closer in the ESV (because I don't know Hebrew):Click to expand...
And translations, though being correct in their translation, are not the final word. We must examine the context of the text in detail, compare it with all relevant passages, and then conclude.
I agree. I said that.
The question before us is "...are the sons of GOd men or spiritual beings?"
Darrell C said: ↑Psalm 82
King James Version (KJV)
1 God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods.
2 How long will ye judge unjustly, and accept the persons of the wicked? Selah.
3 Defend the poor and fatherless: do justice to the afflicted and needy.
4 Deliver the poor and needy: rid them out of the hand of the wicked.
5 They know not, neither will they understand; they walk on in darkness: all the foundations of the earth are out of course.
6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.
7 But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes.
8 Arise, O God, judge the earth: for thou shalt inherit all nations.Click to expand...
Great translation.
Buckethead Baptist said: ↑the ESV
1 God has taken his place in the divine council;
in the midst of the gods he holds judgment:Click to expand...
1. If in view is a "divine council" that stands outside of the temporal, there is no reason we have to conclude that it is...
...the divine council itself that is on trial;
2. We do not have to conclude that the term "gods" is not used of men, and that would make little sense when the context of the Psalm goes on to verify that on trial, so to speak, are men;
3. The "gods" being shown to be men (and again, we will get to why they are men) are judged, and it is perfectly acceptable to see this judgment effected by a "divine council" if we allow this to be a proper understanding and translation;
4. An understanding of "God standing in the 'Congregation' " fits better with the consistent theme of God as Judge over men.
Continued... -
Buckethead Baptist said: ↑2 “How long will you judge unjustly
and show partiality to the wicked? Selah
3 Give justice to the weak and the fatherless;
maintain the right of the afflicted and the destitute.
4 Rescue the weak and the needy;
deliver them from the hand of the wicked.”Click to expand...
As I said, in view...are men.
BHB, can you show me one passage where Angels or demons...
1. Judge men;
2. Could possibly "judge justly" among men;
3. Give justice to the weak;
4.Defend the afflicted and destitute;
5. Rescue the weak and needy;
6. Deliver the weak and the needy from the hand of the wicked;
...?
Buckethead Baptist said: ↑5 They have neither knowledge nor understanding,
they walk about in darkness;
all the foundations of the earth are shaken.
6 I said, “You are gods,
sons of the Most High, all of you;
7 nevertheless, like men you shall die,
and fall like any prince.”[fn]
8 Arise, O God, judge the earth;
for you shall inherit all the nations!Click to expand...
In v.5 we do not see a correlation of God's judgment of men in Genesis 6.
In vv.6-7 we see that the rulers in view will, despite their exalted positions, die like men. That is not the case with demons. In view is basically "You will die like other men despite your exalted positions."
It is not unusual for rulers in antiquity to consider themselves "gods."
Darrell C said: ↑The instruction pertains to those in ruler-ship over the people, and a demand for just ruler-ship. The "Fatherhood" of God in relation to man, though not to be equated with the Fatherhood of New Covenant relationship, can be seen in relation to both all people of the world at times as well as to Israel. {Sorry...no offense, but this is all made up blather based on someone's opinion... its not based on what the verses actually say.}
So my own view would be that we have those in place of ruler-ship taking advantage of their power and basically violating God's will in regards to how those in positions of leadership are to rule. It is not unusual that their descendants would be mighty men, men of renown.
God bless.Click to expand...
Buckethead Baptist said: ↑Thanks Darrell for your response... and I hope I'm not coming across too harshlyClick to expand...
Again, I would recommend better quoting procedure (this is just common courtesy on a debate forum) and refrain from letting this issue be a point of irritation for you. People are just going to disagree over the interpretation of the passage.
If everyone agreed, we'd have nothing to discuss, right?
Buckethead Baptist said: ↑it's just I have no reason to debate the "Sethite" view anymore...Click to expand...
And in point of fact it was not given to you, but another member.
Buckethead Baptist said: ↑Really... I just want to see how the Divine Council understanding will begin to affect thought ...
BBClick to expand...
God bless. -
Buckethead Baptist said: ↑Dude... see the original post.
You have several in depth questions... you have an attitude ... BUY the book.
I'm not going to expound on all your nits... BUY the book.
The Unseen Realm: Recovering the Supernatural Worldview of the BibleClick to expand... -
Buckethead Baptist said: ↑No... I didn't say that...
You can include any of these...
Members of:
The Divine Council
The Heavenly Host
The Powers
The Principalities
Whether they be Angelic... or Spiritual "Other"... I would say they qualify.Click to expand... -
Yeshua1 said: ↑The sons of god could be either fallen angels, or else the sinful line of humans that intermingled with godly line. either understanding valid/acceptable!Click to expand...
We can set them to the side and allow men disagree, sure, but there is only one correct view. They are either Angels or men. And I think the context makes it clear which they are, as does Psalm 82.
God bless. -
percho said: ↑Does anyone think, at some point in time in the past and you can begin with yesterday if you want, did the devil, called Satan or the adversary if you prefer ascend from the earth into heaven with the purpose of taking the throne of God for himself?Click to expand...
I take the view that Satan was an Angel that thought more highly of himself than he ought, and departed from the reality that God is Sovereign over all that is created. He was then cast out, and from that time forth has been a thorn in the side of mankind, seeking to destroy anything he can.
One of the things to consider is Satan's access to Heaven itself. I would suggest that passages thought to imply Satan entering into Heaven (Job 1, for example) might be re-examined to see if we actually see that in the text.
God bless. -
Buckethead Baptist said: ↑I'm not even sure how you're having a contextual blind spot with the 2nd Peter reference. The Jude reference is pretty well documented as the belief and understanding of any 1st Century Jew as to pointing to Genesis 6:1-4.Click to expand...
Not sure I would want to hang my hat on what "the First Century Jews" believed, and for the First Century Jews we can believe (namely the Apostles who were writers of Scripture), that is the point of the discussion, to examine what they were teaching.
Buckethead Baptist said: ↑There is no other event listed in the Torah that it could possibly be about. There's only one.Click to expand...
Revelation 12
King James Version (KJV)
12 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:
2 And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.
3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.
4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.
5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.
6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.
7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
Luke 10:18
King James Version (KJV)
18 And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.
The issue to be examined here, to be discussed and debated...is the chronology.
Does Scripture speak in general terms in regards to the Ancient Serpent, or do we force a chronological Timeline?
God bless. -
Darrell C said: ↑We can't have two correct and acceptable interpretations.
We can set them to the side and allow men disagree, sure, but there is only one correct view. They are either Angels or men. And I think the context makes it clear which they are, as does Psalm 82.
God bless.Click to expand... -
Yeshua1 said: ↑I think that we can, as it is open as to what they really were, but I do think that fallen angels fits better!Click to expand...
They are either men or Angels.
Consult the Word of God and allow Him to speak to you about it. If you consult books about it, you will likely embrace the view that the book your reading has embraced.
God bless. -
Darrell C said: ↑Sorry, Yeshua, no...there is not two right answers.
They are either men or Angels.
Consult the Word of God and allow Him to speak to you about it. If you consult books about it, you will likely embrace the view that the book your reading has embraced.
God bless.Click to expand... -
Yeshua1 said: ↑Peter and Jude seem to see them as being fallen Angels!Click to expand...
As one asked, how is this exegetically linked?
And have to get going, hope you guys have a blessed day, and that the discussions help us in our understanding.
Malachi 3:16
King James Version (KJV)
16 Then they that feared the Lord spake often one to another: and the Lord hearkened, and heard it, and a book of remembrance was written before him for them that feared the Lord, and that thought upon his name.
God bless. -
Darrell C said: ↑So present the Scripture and show why you believe they "seem to see them as being fallen Angels."
As one asked, how is this exegetically linked?
And have to get going, hope you guys have a blessed day, and that the discussions help us in our understanding.
Malachi 3:16
King James Version (KJV)
16 Then they that feared the Lord spake often one to another: and the Lord hearkened, and heard it, and a book of remembrance was written before him for them that feared the Lord, and that thought upon his name.
God bless.Click to expand... -
Darrell C said: ↑I don't.
I take the view that Satan was an Angel that thought more highly of himself than he ought, and departed from the reality that God is Sovereign over all that is created. He was then cast out, and from that time forth has been a thorn in the side of mankind, seeking to destroy anything he can.
One of the things to consider is Satan's access to Heaven itself. I would suggest that passages thought to imply Satan entering into Heaven (Job 1, for example) might be re-examined to see if we actually see that in the text.
God bless.Click to expand...
and he said to them, 'I was beholding the Adversary, as lightning from the heaven having fallen;
Also what do you mean by, "He was then cast out,"?
1 John 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
In your opinion did the works of the devil begin with Eve?
Was it foreordained before the foundation of the world that, Christ, the Son of the living God, would be manifested with the life of the flesh, being in the blood? 1 Peter 1:19,20 Matt. 16:16 Lev. 17:11
If the answer is yes and I believe the Word says it is, then the manifestation of the Word made flesh, wasn't a reaction of God to sin and death but because sin and death was already present in Satan, the devil who preceded man and man would bring it forth upon all men for the purpose of God destroying the devil and his works through, redemption that is in the blood of Christ.
Would you agree that being redeemed by the blood, is the means by which, the devil and his works are destroyed? -
Yeshua1 said: ↑Peter stated that the angels left their firsy abode, and took on strange flesh, and jude seems to confirm that also!Click to expand...
That is what exegetical connection means. It means you must show an exegetical connection between Jude 6 and 2 Peter 2:4 and Genesis 6. -
They left their first abode to go and lust after strange flesh, so why not be that same reference?
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Yeshua1 said: ↑They left their first abode to go and lust after strange flesh, so why not be that same reference?Click to expand...
It was the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh. Jude 7.
Did you confuse the two?
And, of course, 2 Peter makes no mention of any such thing either.
So, again I ask you, please show an exegetical connection between Jude 6 and 2 Peter 2:4 and Genesis 6. -
Squire Robertsson AdministratorAdministrator
As Buckethead, the OP of this thread is now banned. This thread is now closed.
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