The key words here is "seem". They have all these plain statements from Christ and Paul and John that promise a return within a generation. (Shall I list them?) And they try to explain away that plain meaning.
My saying that forthrightly is not meanness. It is love. Love for the truth and for them. It is love for God's Word. (And, no, I don't say that others don't love God's Word also)
But I wish someone would have shown me this option of Preterism when I was a young impressionable Christian in the 70s, clutching my Hal Lindsay and David Wilkerson books. They would have spared me a lot of wasted time and energy. That is why I will keep plugging away at this, on the one hand showing positively what Preterism and the present Kingdom really is, on the other hand delving into the necessary negative, seeming to be quite ugly, but praying for a beautiful result.
This just in, Futurists. Nineveh will be destroyed!
Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by asterisktom, Jun 3, 2011.
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asterisktom Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
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asterisktom Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
I never said they were dishonest. Don't put words in my mouth. And attacking a system, pulling it down, is necessary to putting a different system in place.
Feel free to add whatever you want here, but I think I am done here. No offense, I hope. -
No offense. -
--Which generations? Which people that shall praise the Lord?
To hear the groaning of the prisoner; to loose those that are appointed to death; To declare the name of the LORD in Zion, and his praise in Jerusalem; (Psalms 102:20-21)
--The groaning of the prisoner?? Those that are appointed to death?? Perhaps 70 A.D.
--Declaring the name of the Lord in Zion? When? In the time of Christ? Maybe. During the Millennial Kingdom still to come—more probable.
When the people are gathered together, and the kingdoms, to serve the LORD. (Psalms 102:22)
--Haven’t seen this yet. It must still be future, as are the events in verse 21.
But whereunto shall I liken this generation? It is like unto children sitting in the markets, and calling unto their fellows, (Matthew 11:16)
The men of Nineveh shall rise in judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: because they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here. (Matthew 12:41)
--The men of Nineveh SHALL rise in judgment with this generation.
That hasn’t happened yet. He obviously is speaking of a future event; a future judgment, and not that of the destruction of Jerusalem. It did not involve the men of Nineveh.
The queen of the south shall rise up in the judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: for she came from the uttermost parts of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and, behold, a greater than Solomon is here. (Matthew 12:42)
The queen of the south…the judgment…this generation. It is not speaking of the destruction of Jerusalem, but rather of a future judgment. The queen of the South or Sheba was not present in 70 A.D.
Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation. (Matthew 23:36)
--This was the condemnation of Jesus against the Pharisees. And this condemnation was fulfilled. I don’t have any problem here.
Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled. (Matthew 24:34)
“This generation
Gr. "genea," the primary definition of which is, "race, kind, family, stock, breed." (So all lexicons.) That the word is used in this sense because none of "these things," i.e. the world-wide preaching of the kingdom, the great tribulation, the return of the Lord in visible glory, and the regathering of the elect, occurred at the destruction of Jerusalem by Titus, A.D. 70. The promise is, therefore, that the generation--nation, or family of Israel--will be preserved unto "these things"; a promise wonderfully fulfilled to this day.” (Scofield) -
Iconoclast Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
Hello. I was originally taught the pre=mill dispensational system...getting tapes and book recommendations from Dallas Theological Seminary, and Baptist Bible college.
I know the system and can still teach it of I had to. Only i do not believe it is the best view.
I am currently in between....Amill, and post mill in my understanding.
Matt.24 was fulfilled in 70ad.....and rev up to chapter 20.....
Historic premill would not disturb me...but seems not necessary...but I am fine with whatever the Lord has in store for His people.
I did not read through this whole thread [My post was made without reference to any responses..}...just taking a coffee break now.
I just liked the OP and was happy to see a fresh "topic" or two...as Tom has started several good threads here.
I will interact with any questions you have ..just be patient and i will get back to you....
Studying out the book of Hebrews over a two year period...moved me away from what i was told was rock solid truth.... -
Thanks DHK for your Preterist endorsement
I knew I could count on you or the good revmwc or JF to take the bait!
I wanted you to say it first and not me.
You admit you cannot prove Christ didn’t come in 70 AD.
It doesn’t matter the reason—you can cry all you want about universal negatives, logical fallacies, scientific view points, and time machines—it’s all irrelevant. The fact remains that you can’t prove Christ didn’t come back in 70 AD. That means you have to allow for the possibility that he did. You have admitted that the Preterist position could be right. You have validated the possibility that Christ returned in 70 AD.
Now that you have admitted to the possibility that Preterism could be right and your system has failed you for 2,000 years don’t you think it is time to stop beating yourself up with futurism and give Preterism a legitimate look and not just write it off because it disagrees with your old belief.
You have been a pleasure to work with DHK. :applause:
I look forward to our future work together. -
Good revmwc please see the admission of dhk above
Now that we have established that as a legitimate possibility I invite you to exam preterism with unbiased eyes and ask if you want to blindly cling to a system that has offered you nothing but abject failure and disappointment for 2,000 years.
Your old system has never offered anybody down through the ages anything but disappointment, bewilderment, embarrassment, failure, and has no hope of getting better in the future.
Since dhk has established that preterism could be right--don't you want to try it without all the preconceived notions and give it an honest look.
At worse it couldn't be any more wrong that your system is and at best you could find truth and victory in Christ! -
This is how it works in a court of law (or is supposed to), the defendant is not required to prove that he is innocent, the prosecution has the burden of proving he is guilty, as they made the claim and brought the charge.
This technique has been used by psychics, mediums, and faith healers throughout history, they claim you cannot prove they are not speaking to the dead, or have power to heal.
You claim Jesus returned in 70 A.D., prove it. -
I believe the vast majority of threads you have either started or participated in deal with Preterism. Does this not show that you also are committed to a system? -
But Nineveh was overthown by a literal flood, and the city was burned.
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Admitedly the return of Christ in the lifetime of the Apostles was a very real possibility.
However and for the sake of the debate and assuming it's a valid assumption, preterists then have to deal with the fact that the plain language of the Scriptures are clear concerning the manner in which He will return.
Christ will return bodily in the atmosphere, every eye will see Him (and His pre-ceding sign) with multitudes of global events to be fulfilled (from both OT and NT books) as of yet unfilfilled (unless spiritualized).
Scripture lists will be forthcoming if desired (yes, most are weary of the exercise).
Historically speaking the Apostolic and Early Church Fathers who either spanned the AD70 date or were in close post-time proximity of AD70 will be re-quoted if necessary to show that they looked for a future bodily return of Christ (in the same manner as He left - in His body) as well as a bodily resurrection of those who followed after (we shall be like Him when He appears).
In my research I have found no definitive preterist point of view among the ECF.
Bottom line: the preterist view has perceived problems as well as futurist view.
It's a matter of choice. To me preterism by far has the greater share of perceived difficulties with which one must deal.
My latest unanswered question being - why is planet earth still plagued by sin and death and the created universe still in the bondage of corruption if all is fulfilled and Christ has destroyed the works of the devil?
Why?
How long will this go on and when will it end if all is fulfilled?
Romans 8
21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
1 John 3
1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
HankD -
asterisktom Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
But the vast majority of futurists do not change. Consider this: Almost all Preterists came from the ranks of futurism. In my case, I was a futurist for over thirty years. But none of the futurists (that I know of) used to be Preterist. Why? Why is it only one way? The Preterists are willing to change as their knowledge base changes.
Now about the "vast majority" of my posts dealing with Preterism. Posts are very much response-generated. I Write something. I get response like "Typical Preterist blablabla. So then I am forced to answer more in a Preterist vein to defend my original post.
Also, to you Preterism is an eschatology topic. But for a Preterist it carries over quite thoroughly into Christology and many other aspects of theology. I want to write "perfusely" but that is probably not a word. It perfuses (seeps, permeates) into all of Christianity. It is not just AD 70, but the outworking of the truth that the Kingdom is spiritual and we, its citizens, are spiritual.
I don't focus on the AD 70 aspect. Look at my posts now. I started four threads with lengthy opening posts on Hebrews 1:1-3: believers as prophets, priests, and kings; and two on various aspects of the Greek word katargeo. Also, the posts on the date of Revelation are not strictly speaking, Preterist. Schaff, for instance, who changed his view to an earlier date for Rev., was certainly not Preterist.
However the best short answer, Robert, is just to avoid my posts. Or even put me on ignore. -
asterisktom Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
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asterisktom Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
What also happened when I went through Hebrews, though I wasn't really aware of it at the time, was a growing understanding of the basis of Preterism, and that it really was a reasonable, not a heretical nor even heterodox, framework. -
asterisktom Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
I do want to answer some more from this post, but my time is up now. However I will tell you right now that I am staying away from posting on the ECF. Not because they aren't important, but because I would rather focus on the Bible.
Two short points, and that is we need to look into just what the Bible means by "death" (which I believe, in the pertinent passages, is separation from God) and also what is meant by "being like Him" (= Christlikeness). -
I simply told you how these verses impress me. Verse 1 is of course about Nineveh. But verses 2-7 could be speaking of God at any time, there are many such verses as these in scripture.
Verses 8-10 do seem to be speaking of the destruction of Nineveh.
Verse 11 seems future, because it has already been said that Nineveh was destroyed in verses 8 and 9. Plus, I already knew of the predicted "Assyrian".
And history shows that Nineveh was destroyed as these scriptures say. -
If I claim that Nero word a 3 piece suit made by Gucci, then who has the responsibility of proving it?
Your claim is just as foolish, sad to say. -
Prove He came with Historic evidence thart these churches ceased and when these 144,000 Jews 12, 000 from each tribe testified. Also show where the two witnesses came and were killed laying in the streets of Jerusalem and the whole world saw them as John also said in Revelation. Then too you must show when the Abomination which maketh desolate stood in the Temple for 3 1/2 years as Daniel prophisied and Jesus must occur before His return. I am sure you have Historic and scripture to back all these event up.
I just proved by these there is no evidence all these events occured in Asia Minor as Jerusalem was sacked but His return is to be for ALL believers not just the Jewish ones.
So please prove it occured. Since you clainm it did all this evidence should be available. -
asterisktom Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
Spiritual.
Literal.
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