Does that mean you believe Jesus was kidding or what He said just doesn't apply to you?
US marines in hot water over Christian coins in Iraq
Discussion in 'Political Debate & Discussion' started by carpro, May 30, 2008.
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You were done before you started when it comes to sharing the Gospel, as commanded by Jesus.
"Marines represent the United States of America, not a church. This is entirely inappropriate. They are not there to proselytize. This only reinforces the enemy's view that we are on a Christian crusade."
"This tactic creates confusion among the indiginous Muslims, making them think we are invading in the name of Christ. Sad that Christians support such lunacy. Bad witnessing and bad impressions of Americans."
Magnetic Poles
I don't blame you for not answering. -
MP's point is so straightforward I can't believe it's gone on this long. Seriously.
I stand to be corrected if I'm wrong, but I'm quite sure that MP is making a distinction between me-as-myself v. me-as-an-agent-of-the-state. When fulfilling duties in the capacity of an agent of the state, one's actions are the state's, not one's own, and as such must conform to state policy. Off duty and out of uniform, they are free men (or women), but soldiers wearing uniforms are attired as agents of the state and therefore bound to limit their actions. If they nonetheless feel a higher calling to witness, they of course should do so, but they must also then immediately leave the service, since they can no longer in good conscience perform the duties required of an agent of the state. -
MP easily gets distracted by personal issues and over-dramatizes his point with silly things like comparing evangelical Christians with Nazis.
Threads go on longer because he can't seem to stay on track.
Christ gives no exemption for sharing the gospel to Christians in uniform.
That's simple fact. We cannot change Christ's commands with man made rules.
If you disagree, make a scriptural case for your disagreement. -
I think it comes down to a matter of perspective and priority. The most important decision a human will EVER make in their entire life is what they do about Jesus. And, the only way they can make that chouice is if they hear about Jesus and what He has done for them.
Whether a Christian lives in America or in a Comminist or Islamic country, the Christians first priority is to reach as many lost people with the gospel as he/she can.
Peter and John set the tone way back in Acts 4:18-1918 And they called them, and commanded them not to speak at all nor teach in the name of Jesus. 19 But Peter and John answered and said unto them, Whether it be right in the sight of God to hearken unto you more than unto God, judge ye.I think the bottom line is, we have marching orders from God that take priority over ANY human government or law. Paul spent a good portion of his adult life in jail for preaching the gospel of Jesus Christ when governments told him he wasn't supposed to.
When governments and false religions mix we get the things you mentioned. When government and Christianity mix we get the Constitution of the United States.
I honestly think this is an argument of the devil (and, no, I'm not calling you a devil). I just think Satan tries every trick he can to get us to not witness. I could use variations of your same argument to talk myself out of ever witnessing. For instance... I travel around the world on a US passport. Should I not witness in other countries becasue I am representing the US and I don't want to confuse those I am talking with?
Think about it this way. If I lived in a muslim country and I got saved, should I not tell others about Jesus just because it is illegal? And most people in those countries that get saved do not have the ability to leave their home country. We would all agree (I think) that the Christian in a Muslim country or in a communist country should still share the gospel even though it is illegal to do so.
So, really, the debate is where do you draw the line as it relates to where you can witness. I say, as long as you share in love and understanding, there is no limit as to where you can share the good news of salvation through Jesus. Maybe God led you into the military or into being an "agent of the state" to put you in a place where no other Christian could be so that you can reach someone that is searching for a Savior. -
Bob, this gets to the crux of where we disagree. When a soldier wears the uniform of an armed force, he is not representing his or her self, but rather the authority that uniform represents. Like I have said before, this not only is a constitutional violation of the First Amendment, but it also easily confuses the people in the invaded nation that we invaded under the cross and not the auspices of the US government. It reinforces the idea of a Christian crusade against Islam, thus fomenting further hatred and terrorism.
"When fascism comes to America, it’ll be wrapped in a flag and carrying a cross” — Sinclair Lewis -
MP, yep, this is the crux of where we disagree. I'll lay out a couple of thoughts but I think we will ultimately have to agree to disagree on this.
It is obvious in context when a military member is representing the country of the uniform they wear and when they are speaking for themselves.
Second, the government of America (as it was originally set up) was not against spreading the gospel of Jesus Christ. The arguments mostly were about denominations in the Chritian faith - not about false religions.
Third, like I was pointing out in Acts 4, God's command to spread the gospel everywhere takes priority over any government's laws. So, even if ou are right on the First Amendment, it doesn't negate God's command to spread the gospel.
I'm not sure I would call it a crusade but God does have a plan for conquering Islam - leading as many of them to Christ as we can before the rapture.
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One more thing we must not forget. There is a Holy Spirit and He does have a ministry to the lost. When a soldier talks to someone about the love that God has for them and about the fact that Jesus died for their sins, the Holy Spirit is there working with the Christian. The Holy SPirit is giving the Christian utterence and boldiness and He is talking to the heart of the person being worked with convicting them of sin, righteousness and judgement. -
Great posts, Bro. Dudley. You have really clarified the issue with your personal experience and zeal for fulfilling our Biblical commission. :thumbs:
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Bro. Curtis <img src =/curtis.gif>Site Supporter
I would like to see a biblical warning about keeping Christ to yourself when employed by the state. I don't think that makes me a Nazi. -
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There is no need for a scriptural case to be made. Military personnel are sworn to uphold the Constitution. They are not sworn to be missionaries. If that is a person's zeal, he should become a missionary, not a member of the United States Armed Forces. Note the Oath of Enlistment below:
"I, _____, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God." (Title 10, US Code; Act of 5 May 1960 replacing the wording first adopted in 1789, with amendment effective 5 October 1962).Notice the oath has nothing about spreading the gospel or fighting under the banner of the cross. In other words, not every matter is a scriptural matter. There are some issues that are purely secular in nature. When shopping at the store, I don't have to consult scriptures to decide if Coke or Pepsi is God's choice. I believe there is no need to make every issue a religious issue. I never stated a serviceman or servicewoman should check their religion at the recruitment office. But upon their enlistment, their duty is to country. They represent all of us when in uniform, and should refrain from proselytizing.
I realize you don't agree. That's fine. You are entitled to your opinion, wrong as it is. :thumbs: -
Revmitchell Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
Christians do not suspend their Christianity and live hypocritical dual lives at any point.
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Matthew 15:9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching [for] doctrines the commandments of men. -
Marines get to exercise their faith anywhere and anytime they have the opportunity. -
Bro. Curtis <img src =/curtis.gif>Site Supporter
I'll give you one point, giving out coins seems to be like giving out tracts. I can see & support a private company, or an armed service, telling folks this is not allowed. -
P.S. Sorry I missed the joke. -
It's hard to see the humor in your comparison of Christian Marines to Nazis.
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