Reading between the lines, yes I think we disagree, therefore one of us is wrong.
WARNINGS NOT TO DEPART THE FAITH (HEBREWS 6:4-8; HEBREWS 10:26-39)
Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by 3rdAngel, Sep 17, 2019.
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God's Sheep hear His Voice (the Word of God) and follow him. Those who do not are not His Sheep *JOHN 10:1-10; 26-27. -
Hebrews 6:4 For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.
See? The Scripture plainly says if one falls away, he/she crucifies Jesus again. So, ya might as well cease trying to make the Scripture say something it DOESN'T say. -
In regards to the word stumble or fall, *I find it interesting that the term "stumble" or "fall away" was used by the Lord Jesus of His 11 disciples at the time of His arrest. The disciples deserted Jesus as was predicted and Peter even denied Jesus three times. They were said to "stumble" or "fall away." Matthew 26:31 - Then Jesus said to them, "You will all fall away because of Me this night, for it is written, 'I WILL STRIKE DOWN THE SHEPHERD, AND THE SHEEP OF THE FLOCK SHALL BE SCATTERED.' 32 "But after I have been raised, I will go ahead of you to Galilee." 33 But Peter said to Him, "Even though all may fall away because of You, I will never fall away." (NASB) Obviously, this was not a loss of salvation.
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It is very plain to me. I learned to diagram sentences in High School -
HEBREWS 6:4-8 ...
1. They were once enlightened; HEBREWS 6:4
2. They tasted of the Heavenly gift; HEBREWS 6:4
3. They were made partakers of the Holy Ghost; HEBREWS 6:4
4. They tasted of the good Word of God; HEBREWS 6:5
5. They tasted of the power of the world to come
6. THEY (BELIEVERS) FALL AWAY; HEBREWS 6:6
7. THEY (BELIEVERS) renew themselves to repentance; HEBREWS 6:6
8. THEY (BELIEVERS) by their sins crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame; HEBREWS 6:6
Then in HEBREWS 10:26-39 we have more "WARNINGS" to "BELIEVERS" and "CONSEQUENCES" of departing the faith ...
1. IF WE (BELIEVERS) return back to a life of known unrepentant SIN; HEBREWS 10:26
2. WE (BELIEVERS) being those who have received a knowledge of the truth; HEBREWS 10:26
3. WE (BELIEVERS) will receive the judgments of God; HEBREWS 10:27
4. WE (BELIEVERS) will receive a greater punishment for returning to a life of known unrepentant sin because we have receved a knowledge of the truth and turned away from it; HEBREWS 10:29
5. WE (BELIEVERS) by returning back to known unrepentant sin after we receive a knowledge of the truth we count the blood of the covenant an UNHOLY thing and do despite to the Spirit of Grace; HEBREWS 10:29
6. WE (BELIEVERS) are warned not to CAST AWAY our confidence which has great reward; HEBREWS 10:35
7. WE (BELIEVERS) receive God's promise after we do God's will; HEBREWS 10:36
8. WE (BELIEVERS) are WARNED NOT TO DRAW BACK INTO UNBELIEF; HEBREWS 10:38
These are "WARNINGS" from God's Word and it is God's Word alone that says that these people were "ONCE BELIEVERS" that departed the faith to return to a life of known unrepentant sin showing indeed that someone who was "ONCE A BELIEVER" can lose their salvation. God's salvation and all of God's promises are always "CONDITIONAL" on "BELIEVING AND FOLLOWING God's Word in the "PRESENT TENSE" *JOHN 3:15-21. If we do not believe and follow God's Word we come under "CONDEMNATION" because salvation is by faith in God's Word *JOHN 3:18.
This is different to PROVERBS 24:16 which is talking about a "RIGHTEOUSS MAN" not an "UNRIGHTEOUSS MAN" which is being spoken of in HEBREWS 6:4-8 and HEBREWS 10:26-39 who has "FALLEN AWAY" and has "DRAWN BACK" by rejecting the faith to live a life of known "UNREPENTANT SIN"
Sorry my friend there is no such thing as "ONCE SAVED ALWAYS SAVED" this is a false gospel and one that has its origin from the father of lies first preached to Eve in the Garden of Eden *GENESIS 3:1-5. Only God's Word is true and we should believe and follow it. Salvation is "CONDITIONAL" on BELIEVING AND FOLLOWING God's Word. If you do not believe and follow God's Word to the end than you do not have salvation *HEBREWS 3:14; HEBREWS 10:38; HEBREWS 12:25-27; 2 PETER 2:20; HEBREWS 3:6-8; HEBREWS 2:3; COLOSSIANS 1:23; JAMES 1:12; MATTHEW 24:13; MARK 13:13; 2 THESSALONIANS 2:1-3; 1 TIMOTHY 4:1.
God's Sheep hear His Voice (the Word of God) and follow him *JOHN 10:26-27. -
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BroJim95 missed your reply , please post again
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Salvation does not rely of your efforts but the finished work of Christ
Many claim Jesus then try to keep themselves saved by a Do Not do list. Dependent on a man's actions Which is wrong. -
That salvation is by grace through faith and is not my works is not hard to understand. It’s just hard for work-salvationists to ACCEPT. It’s a shame that human pride will not allow works-salvationists to come to Christ on His terms and not theirs. Their hands are full of their works and they will not let go in order to receive Christ through faith. -
God's Salvation and God's promises are only ever "CONDITIONAL" on believing and following God's Word.
God's Sheep hear His Voice (the Word of God) and follow him *JOHN 10:26-27. Those who are not God's Sheep do not heat his Voice (the Word of God) and do not follow him and do not have salvation.
"ONCE SAVED ALWAYS SAVED" is a false Gospel that teached men can be saved in sin when God's word teaches if we continue in sin we will die *ROMANS 8:13 because all those who continue in known unrepentant sin reject the gift of God's dear son *ROMANS 6:23; HEBREWS 10:26-39; HEBREWS 6:4-8. This is actually the same claim to salvation that the JEWS said to JESUS when they claimed they were God's people because Abraham was their father. The response of JESUS was that if you were ABRAHAMS seed you would do the works of ABRAHAM, you are of your father the devil *JOHN 8:31-44
JESUS came to save us from sin, not to continue in sin *JOHN 8:31-36. Sin is the difference between the children of God and the children of the devil *1 JOHN 3:6-10. If we are not born again we cannot enter into the kingdom of Heaven *JOHN 3:3-8
Hope this helps. -
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That right there is why people keep telling you that you are teaching works, not grace.
To me, you are stating that a person's faith, if it has no fruit, is dead; which it is ( James 2:14-26 ).
But instead of understanding that there are two "kinds" of faith...true faith that accompanies salvation and that endures to the end, and false faith that only "tares" ( false brethren ) have and that fails when tested... you are assuming that everyone who professes Christ, possesses Christ.;)
They don't.:Sneaky
As I see it, not only are you not taking into account Matthew 7:21-23, but you are failing to take into account both the parables of the "tares" and the sower... and their accompanying explanations that the Lord Jesus revealed plainly to His disciples in Matthew 13.
Please see Matthew 13:18-23 for the Lord's explanation of the parable of the sower, and Matthew 13:36-43 for His explanation of the parable of the tares of the field ( which His enemy has sown / planted ).
Simply put, you have two choices:
1) Either a born again believer who is indwelt by the Holy Spirit ( Ephesians 1:13 ), kept by the power of God through faith ( 1 Peter 1:5 ) can fail to produce true spiritual fruit and stop believing, OR...
2) A person who thinks they are saved ( but is really not ), does not and cannot produce true spiritual fruit and they have never believed with the heart... because they have never been born again and have never been indwelt by the Holy Ghost.
They profess Christ with the lips, but in works, they deny Him by their actions ( Titus 1:16 ).
They have a form of godliness, but deny the power thereof ( 2 Timothy 3:5 )...with their actions and lack of true spiritual fruit.
For some strange reason, you choose #1... despite the promises that Christ gave to His sheep:
John 3:16.
John 3:36.
John 5:24.
John 6:37-40.
John 10:28-29.
John 11:25-26.
Therefore, it is works.
Why?
Because if their salvation relied on God and His gracious power alone, then they would not lose their salvation.
He would do the "keeping", and when He does something or purposes something, it never fails ( Numbers 23:19, Isaiah 14:27, Isaiah 43:13, Daniel 4:35, Proverbs 19:21 ).;)
Salvation, in no way shape or form, relies on the efforts of men in order to bring it to pass.:Thumbsup -
Now please show me in these scriptures that I have quoted here from God's Word that are not my words but God's Word where it says that we are saved by our works? Now if I have never once said we are saved by our works than why are you pretending that I have said things I have never said or believe? I will leave that between you and God to work through.
More to come... -
Hope this helps -
Explain to me how God loses one of His children that He promises to keep by His own power ( 1 Peter 1:5 ), if salvation is 100% "of the Lord".
The believer only loves Him, because He first loved the believer ( 1 John 4:19 ).
No man, except that person be saved, thinks that the preaching of the cross is anything but foolishness ( 1 Corinthians 1:18 ).
However, when He changes the heart, we freely believe His words.:)
If it has to be gained by meeting requirements, then those efforts at meeting the requirements, are works.
Only God's efforts at saving someone for Himself, are "grace".
Your view takes God's grace, and makes it dependent upon the efforts and will of men.
It's one thing to state that a person has to "do" something because the Bible states it as a "condition" or a necessary evidence...it's quite another to make salvation dependent upon that person's obedience, effort, action, or belief.
Again, this is works ( Romans 11:5-6 ), not grace.
Put another way...
Does a person believe because they are saved, or are they saved because they believe? -
First you state that salvation does not depend on men to bring it to pass.
Then you turn right around and make salvation dependent upon what men do, by saying that "our part is to choose".
Therefore, the choice that men make, determines whether or not they are saved...doesn't it?:Sneaky
If it depends upon the choice that men make, then the "impetus" is on man, and not God alone.
So....how exactly is that not man doing works, @3rdAngel, when the Bible itself says this?
" not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
6 which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;" ( Titus 3:5-6 )
Scripture tells us that it was according to His mercy He saved us...not by any work of righteousness which we have done.
Is belief a work of righteousness?
How about obedience to His words?
Yes.
Outside of being made righteous by the blood of Christ, our righteousness is as filthy rags ( Isaiah 64:6 ).
Therefore, one has to already be righteous, to do works of righteousness.:) -
It teaches that we are in total rebellion to Him and His ways ( Romans 1:18-32 ).
It teaches that there are none that seek God ( Romans 3:10-18, Psalms 10:4 ).
It teaches that we are willing servants to sin ( Romans 6:20 ).
It teaches that men hate Him and His Son ( Romans 1:32, John 3:19-20, John 15:18 ).
There is no such thing as "free" will, because man begins life already in sin ( Psalms 58:3 ), and already set in our ways and loving it.
Man's will is already biased against God.
Free will, when it comes to mankind, is a myth.
It's not "free" and unbiased, because God's word actually states that we hate Him.
So...man is not a robot, and neither are we innocent of wrongdoing.
Furthermore, unless He makes a person born again, no man would ever seek reconciliation with Him.
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