Flesh and blood will not inherit the kingdom of God - SO? Jesus said He was flesh and bone after His resurrection, so shall we be like Him.
We will (just as Jesus) be made alive by the Spirit of God not oxygenated blood and therefore fit to enter the eternal kingdom of God.
OK you have altered the terminology of the debate also - It not I with the wrong "interpretation" of Romans 1:12 and Psalm 51:5.
"More problematic, however, is how the idea of a third nature (a human nature common to man but foreign to Christ) applies to Christ."
Were you conceived of the Holy Ghost? This applies to Christ alone. He was not conceived according to Psalm 51:5.
Again let the readers decide.
Was Jesus human like us or a different kind of human?
Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by JonC, Apr 26, 2018.
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Yes, Jesus was human like us but without sin.
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No. Jesus was not human like us. Jesus could never become sick or, short of being killed, die.
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For example, it has been suggested that Jesus had to be born of a virgin in order to avoid this "sin nature". This suggests that sin is a biological issue rather than a response to temptation based on the desires of the flesh (James 1). Are there any passages that suggest sin is passed down genetically? Scripture speaks of the wicked as being of their father the Devil. Does this mean Satan or his demons actually fathered children (i.e., was Daniel Parker right)?
So the nature of sin needs to be explored (is it an act of the will in disobedience to God or is it a genetic predisposition passed down biologically).
Also, what we are referring to as "nature" needs to be addressed. Perhaps the reason this "sin nature" is foreign to Scripture is how the term is used (Scripture only refers to the "flesh" and the "spirit"). Maybe it is an issue of definitions. -
Man is not "fallen" in the sense that now he sins, that was part of the original creation.
Adam was separated from God in the Fall and was cast out of the physical presence of God and the source of unending (physical) life.
God knew it would lead to something better, so allowing Adam to sin, in the long (eternal) run, was expedient for us.
Adam and Eve knew what was good, and what was evil, and they chose that which was evil (disobeying God).
Not sure I would attribute that to their spirit, because I think we fall into the trap of a "the body is evil, the spirit is good" and overlook the conditions men are in when commit evil or do good. Secondly, I think that attributes to the spirit something that isn't there. While men can, in their natural condition, do good, we have to remember that on a physical plane no man, not even Adam, is righteous, so the good he does has to be kept in that perspective. SO the point is that the spirit of man cannot exceed what it was created to do, but, in the case of Christ, we have Righteousness incarnate, as opposed to men simply doing good (or evil).
I agree, men are not inherently evil, but, neither are they inherently Righteous. Not as God is. The only means of man being righteous is to be credited with the Righteousness that only God has. Everything else falls on that physical plane, and while we can judge between the good and evil among men, we cannot judge between the good of men and the Righteousness of God.
I actually love this topic, so excuse me for doing a little thinking out loud.
God bless. -
There is nothing in the text to suggest that you and I "sinned" before we were even created.
And there is nothing in the text to suggest that men are conceived and born with "a sin nature."
He magnifies God's creation of men in the womb, and when they are born:
Psalm 22:10
King James Version (KJV)
10 I was cast upon thee from the womb: thou art my God from my mother's belly.
Psalm 71:5-6
King James Version (KJV)
5 For thou art my hope, O Lord God: thou art my trust from my youth.
6 By thee have I been holden up from the womb: thou art he that took me out of my mother's bowels: my praise shall be continually of thee.
Psalm 139:13-16
King James Version (KJV)
13 For thou hast possessed my reins: thou hast covered me in my mother's womb.
14 I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvellous are thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well.
15 My substance was not hid from thee, when I was made in secret, and curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the earth.
16 Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect; and in thy book all my members were written, which in continuance were fashioned, when as yet there was none of them.
God bless. -
Adam was spiritual right with God before the fall, not afterwards, what happened? he spiritually died, and had a sin nature come to him....
call it something else if you want, but all humans since Adam, save for jesus, had that same rotten flesh nature in them! -
I do not view the Son of God as co-habitating with the "spirit of Jesus Christ," so to speak, but that He was fully God, and His body was fully human just as Adam's was when he was created.
While one might call the fact that man will inevitably sin a "sin nature," the way I see it is that men sin because they do not have the ability to be righteous. They can do good, but, there is nothing stopping them from doing evil as well.
That is where the Eternal Indwelling comes in:
Ezekiel 36:27
King James Version (KJV)
27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
We are created in Christ Jesus unto good works. It's not just a matter of us deciding to do good, it is a matter of God directing our paths. Jonah "did good" unwillingly, but completely lacked an eternal perspective in regards to the Ninevites. We, on the other hand, look into eternity and understand that a physical perspective doesn't over-shadow the eternal. We love our enemies because God loves them, and because He has placed love in our hearts.
It is no different than Abraham being a "father" to those who have faith, or Paul being a "father" to those he led to Christ. It is figurative. Satan was the father of lies, the originator, and they were just like their "father," liars.
How do men without the Spirit react to the authority of others? They mostly reject it. How much more true is that in regards to the will of God. "Don't tell me I can't __________(fill in the blank!" Don't tell me I have to __________(fill in the blank)!"
But if we have the mind of Christ, not only do we know that will, but...we agree with it. You couldn't have told me when I was young that there was anything wrong with my life. Hey, I was a pretty good guy. I didn't hurt anyone. But, the truth is that guy was someone I despise to this day. Why? Because God showed me the reality of who that person was.
I did "good" things sometimes. But, I didn't realize the sin in my life, and that sin was contrary to the will of God.
The babe in the womb isn't destined for eternal judgment because they have sinned, they are destined for eternal judgment because they are separated from God. Praise God that in the case of babes who die in the womb we can trust the Just God to extend the same grace bestowed to Old Testament Saints, who also died still separated from God.
God bless. -
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You are wrong about the text
"sin entered'
"death passed"
"all sinned"
All indicative aorist active - the events all happened at the same time. We were all there.
Just because your human understanding can not completely understand or makes you feel uncomfortable it doesn't mean its not a fact.
Also Psalm 51:5 says no such thing according to your interpretation.
David claims he was sin from his mothers conception and not from the world and its conditions and consequences which he was 9 months from entering. Those words are NOT even used in the text but a simple statement that he was sin from conception. There can be no other meaning.
True we are in His image and Likeness but again we have NOTHING to commend us to God not even as a fertilized human embryo.
We are sin from conception. -
he had no inclination to sin, but we are born with a bent towards sinning! -
Secondly, I don't see "flesh" as a compatible term in this discussion, because we are primarily dealing with the Body God inhabited, which looks at the physical. When "flesh" is used figuratively to represent a sinful proclivity it becomes, in my view, irrelevant to Christ, because I do not view Him as at all inclined to sin.
When someone gets hungry, they respond to the "flesh." It is the response that determines whether sin arises. A man gets something from the fridge, no sin (and this guy is getting healthy food, lol, a few carrots, let's say). A man is hungry and goes into an unknown house, kills the man living there, and raids the fridge...sin.
Lastly, perhaps we could distinguish two "human natures" when the context is the Incarnation: the first being physical, the second pertaining to man's proclivity towards sin. Christ had the first...but not the second. Because He was God.
God bless. -
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Note, I am not speaking of unnatural desires of the flesh, but the natural. To deny Jesus natural desires is to deny his humanity. -
You impose into that a universal past tense that isn't there.
And if you think "You are wrong!" and "You have human understanding!" makes your case...think again.
Sin entered the world...not men.
Death passed to all men...not sin.
I agree.
Romans 5:13-14
King James Version (KJV)
13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
It states right there that theses men...are not guilty of Adam's sin.
And we are not created (conception and birth) in the image and likeness of God:
Genesis 5
King James Version (KJV)
1 This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him;
2 Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created.
3 And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, and after his image; and called his name Seth:
I'd like to know, apart from this "sin nature" you think is physically passed down, what sin you could possibly charge the unborn child with. Kicking his mother? Making her sick? What is it? What sin does the babe in the womb commit?
God bless. -
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That He was tempted is, from my perspective, no different than the temptations of Satan. There was no possibility that He would have made bread out of stones (He was fasting for a purpose), or that He would cast Himself off a high place, or that He would bow down to Satan. He was tempted, but, there was never a possibility that He would succumb to those temptations. That would be like tempting a blind man with free sunglasses.
;)
God bless. -
Does not mean that he was not tempted and tried, as he would experience it much harder than any of us, as he is Holy, we are not! -
The Temptation is a good example. Jesus could have eaten (satisfied the desires of the flesh) but he came to do the Father's will. The same is true when he was tempted by Peter's remark ("may it never be"). -
Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same;
Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God:
That which is born of the flesh is flesh;
A. Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
B. Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
Your thoughts? Just how human was he?
Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne. Rev 3:21
He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son. Rev 21:7 -
There was never, not while He was alive, nor in eternity past, the chance that Christ would succumb to temptations. That He can have compassion on us is one thing, but, that He could have somehow yielded to temptation is contrary to the Nature of God.
God bless.
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