Which is EXACTLY why we need biblical scholars conversant in the original languages instead of fundamentalistic Bible proof-texters who take God's Word out of context based on a reading in the English. Great post! :thumbs:
What do you believe is required for Salvation?
Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Thinkingstuff, Oct 19, 2010.
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Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
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Thinkingstuff Active Member
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I have to admit, Thinkingstuff has a strong point. The text is the text and it says exactly what it says.
Many refuse to admit this, but most of us Evangelicals don't believe the Bible text as it is stated many times but use other techniques to resolve what to us are discrepancies based on OUR stated understanding. I'll admit, taking an modern day Evangelical position places many of these discrepancies in our path that do not exist in Orthodox or Catholic circles.
But rather than leaving a grey area grey, Evangelicals, which I am painting admitedly with a broad brush here (and I feel is accurate nonetheless), like to have things in solid BLACK and WHITE. We don't like grey. It must resolve or we go crazy. I believe this tendency also explains why we tend to hammer the circle into the square peg a lot of times. And with extreme intensity. -
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Another key passage is Galatians 5:22 which list the fruit of the Spirit. Part of that is faith. Faith is that which is produced by the indwelling Spirit, and thus wasn't there prior to the indwelling Spirit of God. Thus, faith is the gift of God given to saved people whereby they believe in God. The poster was right when he said that belief being exhibited in a person's life shows that he is saved. -
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Really? So when Paul wrote, "and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God," you say he was referring to the word salvation? Problem is, salvation doesn't appear in the text, and that is important considering that we are talking about language construction here. That, which is revealed to be a gift of God, must refer to something, and that something must logically be a noun. Either it is grace, or faith, or both. The strongest case is faith.
There are many times in scripture when something is said to be the gift of God:
eternal life
righteousness
faith and/or grace
Obviously, all of these are aspects of salvation. To say salvation is a gift and thus he's not talking about faith is a bit ridiculous. Righteousness is a gift, but is not the whole of salvation, only a part. Same with eternal life.
In Ephesians 2:8, 9 Paul is explaining that salvation excludes boasting. There must be a reason why boasting is excluded. There is. Salvation is all of God and none of us. We can't boast because, beginning to end, salvation is of the Lord. The righteousness whereby we are justified is the free gift of God. The faith whereby we believe in Jesus is the gift of God and fruit of the Spirit. The eternal life to which we are saved is the gift of God. It is Jesus Christ who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: that, according as it is written, he that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord. -
Why then does Paul choose Genesis 15:6 while in Galatians 3:6-8 go back to Genesus 12:3 when in both contexts he is referring to the same doctrine of Justification by faith and Abraham as the example??? The answer is very simple from the two different contexts. In Romans 4 Paul is emphasizing imputation through faith while in Galatians he is emphasizing the object of faith or the promised seed which is Christ (Gal. 3:8,16-17). Genesis 15:6 provides the precise language for Paul's doctrinal point in Romans 4, although, it actually occurred at an earlier point than Genesis 15:6. Genesis 12:3 provides the precise language for Pauls doctrinal point in Galatians 3:8-17 even though Genesis 12:3 also employs the same perfect tense demonstrating this conversation occurred earlier in Genesis 11 while Abraham was in Ur of the Chaldees.
The Mosaic languagae moves the completed act of justification and Abraham's faith in the gospel object back to Genesus 11 and the writer of Hebrews agree. It was in the land of Ur that the original conversation took place, the gospel was preached to Abraham and the promised seed being the object of faith, when Abraham believed the gospel and it was imputed to him for righteousness as a completed action that continued to stand as a completed action in Genesis 12, 15, 22, etc.
This is confirmed by Paul in Romans 4:12 where justification is a completed action (Aorist tense) previous to circumcision that occurred 14 years after Abrham believed the gospel in the Ur of the Chaldees. If your position were correct then obedience to circumcision would be a PROGRESSIVE evidence of PROGRESSIVE justification and Paul should have used the present tense. However, Paul uses the Aorist showing a completed action previous to circumcision.
This is confirmed in Romans 5:1-2 where Paul uses one Aorist and two Perfect tense verbs to demand that justification by faith in the gospel (Rom. 4:22-25) is a completed action rather than a progressive repeated action. Your position and theology would require Paul to use either imperfect or present tense verbs.
The contextual point in Romans 4 provides the explanation why he uses Genesis 15:3 as Gensis 15:3 not only contained the exact language to make Paul's point but contained the use of the Perfect tense in the Hebrew text so that it would not contradict Paul's use of Aroist and Perfect tense verbs to demand it is a completed action rather than a progressive action.
The contextual point in Galatians 3:6-17 provides the explanation why Paul uses Genesis 12:6 as Genesis 12:6 not only contained the exact language to make Paul's point but contained the use of the perfect tense in the Hebrew text so that it would not contradict Paul's use of the Perfect tense verbs in Paul's treatise on the same subject in both Romans and Galations and harmonize perfectly with the statements made by the writer of Hebrews 11 that it was in UR of the Chaldees the faith of Abraham originated as both the perfect tense verbs in Genesis 15:6 and Genesis 12:3 point back to a previous time of a completed action and that time is in Genesus 11:28-29.
Your position necessarily demands the use of imperfect or present tense verbs whereas the Scriptures use Aorist and Perfect tense verbs in all of these passages.
Hence it was in Genesis 11:28-19 that the perfect tense verbs in Genesis 12:3 and 15:6 and the Aorist tense verb in Romans 4:12 point back to as the point of that completed action and that the writer of Hebrews confirms as the point of origin of Abrham's faith. -
If faith is a gift God has only given a few, the many cannot be held accountable for not having it as it was not given to them! Justice demands that responsibility requires ability. -
Thinkingstuff Active Member
You gave it a good try but it doesn't pan out the way you want it. -
Both Romans 4:3 and Galatians 3:8 are referring to Abraham and the same doctrine of justification by faith without work in their immediate contexts. Agreed?
Galatians 3:8 quotes the phrase "In thee shall all nations be blessed" directly from Genesis 12:3. However, in the immediate context of Galatians 3:8 Paul makes it clear that it is initial faith in the gospel he is talking about (vv. 6-7) and the object of gospel faith which is Christ as he interprets Genesis 12:3 and that phrase to have direct application to Christ:
Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect. - Gal. 3:16-17
Galatians 3:8 points to Abraham's initial encounter and his faith in the object of gospel "in thee shall- or the promised "seed" which Paul interprets as referring to Christ in Galatians 4:16-17.
Galatians 3:8 points to the reader to Genesis 12:1 where the perfect tense does not simply mean "a simply occurrence" but a "past completed simple occurence" in the land of Ur.
Gen. 12:1 ¶ Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father’s house, unto a land that I will shew thee:
Now whether you place this conversation in Haran or in Ur both Galatians and Hebrews take it back to this conversation.
The perfect tense in Hebrew is no different than the perfect in Greek - a completed action in the past that stands completed right to the time of writing. Hence, Moses places this conversation "had said" as a completed action that still stood complete/finished up to the writing in Genesis 12:1-3. It occurred previous to the death of Teran in Ur (Gen. 11:32).
However, it is better to place it all the way back in the land of the Chaldees in Ur as that was "thy country" rather than Haran which was outside of the Chaldees and hundreds of miles from Ur. God simply reminded Abraham of this conversation in Ur at the time of His father's death.
By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went. - Hebrews 11:8
Therefore, Galatians 3:8; hebrews 11:8 and Genesis 12:1 all place Abraham's initial faith in the Gospel object of the promised "seed" back in Ur of the Chaldees.
Also, Galatians 3 is referring to the same doctrine of justification by faith as in Romans 3:24-5:2 and both use Abraham as the example and both call him "the father" of all who believe the gospel (Gal. 3:6-7; Rom. 4:12).
In addition, Paul uses the Aorist tense verb in Romans 4:12 to prove that justification by faith in regard to Abraham was a COMPLETED ACTION long before he was circumcised - which makes no sense for your position as according to your position it would be inclusive of justification as your position is a progressive linear justification.
In addition, after immediately applying the faith and imputation to the gospel in Romans 4:22-25 he speaks of it in the Aorist and Perfect tenses in Romans 5:1-2 as completed actions or the completed POSITION or STANDING at the point of faith in the gospel. Again this contradicts your whole interpretational theory.
Our point of disagreement is Romans 4:3 with Genesis 15:6 instead of with Genesis 12:1-3 as Galatians 3:8 refers to as the initial encounter as the point of justification by faith in the object of the gospel.
However, Romans 3:27 asks the question "where is boasting?" in regard to what Paul said in verses 24-26 where God's provision of Christ is the object of faith ("faith in His blood" and "believe in him") providing nothing for the believer to boast in because it is all provided "freely by grace" and the only role of faith is to embrace Christ's work (believe in his blood) and person (believe in him).
So Romans 4:1 is still using Abraham and challenging what basis could Abraham have to boast in His own justification - the basis described in Romans 3:24-26! Hence, the provision of grace in Christ in Romans 3:24-26 is the concluding application in Romans 4:22-5:2.
Hence, why does Paul refer the reader to Genesis 15:6 instead of Genesis 12:1-3 where Paul says that Abraham was justified by faith in the gospel (Gal. 3:6-17) when it is justification by faith in the gospel that is still the subject of Romans 3:24-5:1?
The reason is to point out that Abraham could not boast in his own works because justification by faith was IMPUTED rather than something to do with Abraham's person or efforts. Genesis 15:6 says that righteousness was "counted" to him due to faith and the perfect tense is used "believed" not because Abraham first believed in Christ as the promised seed in Genesis 15:1-6 but because he had already beleived in the gospel of Christ at the point it was first introduced to Him in the Ur of the Chaldees and he continued in that perfected state of faith and position of justificaiton due to imputation rather than any kind of personal faithfulness on his part. His faithfulness to God since Ur was because of His faith in the promise of what God did for him as presented in the gospel (Gal. 3:6-17).
Hence, all the evidence taken together (Gal. 3:6-17; Heb. 11:8; Gen. 12:1-3; Romans 3:24-4:3; 4:22-25; 5:1-2) demonstrate the perfect tense in both Genesis 12:1 and 15:3 refer to the same simple but completed action of faith in the gospel while in Ur and that completed state continued to stand completed throughout Abraham's entire life. He never repeated that action because that was his STANDING (Rom. 5:2) before God by faith in the gospel (Rom. 4:22-25). -
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"Whose justice requires that? Yours? You are imposing your own sense of justice on God." -
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"If faith is a gift God has only given a few, the many cannot be held accountable for not having it as it was not given to them! Justice demands that responsibility requires ability."
He had a different point of view.
And now, in your statement above, it seems that you are questioning his salvation. His view on Eph.2:8,9 is different. That doesn't mean that God is an unjust God, or that he is unsaved. Where do you get these absurd conclusions? -
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Second, when Paul said the "natural man cannot...", who was he speaking to, and what was the context? Was he giving a soteriological lesson to the church? In context it is NOT saying what you are trying to make it say
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