Exactly. I am glad to see you realize this. No man can be regenerated until his sins are washed away, and no man's sins are washed away until he believes on Christ. Therefore, faith MUST precede regeneration. This is truly logical, your position is not.
You were doing good, but now you resort to making up doctrine not shown in the scriptures.
Nope. You cannot be spiritually alive while you are still in your sins. The wages of sin is DEATH. Until your sins are removed you cannot be spiritually alive in any sense whatsoever.
No, first the word of God tells us we are sinners and on our way to hell. We are convicted by the word. This is repentance, it is a change of view about one's self. We no longer believe we are righteous in ourselves and can merit salvation.
When we hear of Jesus dying for us we are drawn by his love for us in that he would give his son to die for us when we were yet sinners.
When the word of God tells us that if we believe on Jesus we will be saved, NOW we are enabled to trust Christ. But we are still not regenerated or spiritually alive.
Now, the moment you trust Jesus, then your sins are forgiven and you are now spiritually alive.
You cannot be regenerated for even a millionth of a second before your sins are forgiven. While you remain in your sins you are spiritually dead.
And we see how Calvinists go astray with this false belief. We see on another thread a hyper-Calvinist who believes you are born regenerated, but only believe when you hear the gospel later. This could be many years. In his view, a person can be spiritually alive for years, yet still dead in all their trespasses and sins.
The teaching that regeneration precedes faith is utterly false. You can try to wiggle around it, but I think deep inside you know better. You are making up doctrine on the spot to reconcile doctrine that simply does not work, and is not scriptural.
Good luck making yourself believe that.
What does this statement mean?
Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Moriah, Apr 24, 2012.
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The Biblicist Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
The former imparts life to your person while the latter imputes life to your position "in Christ" before God. They are simeltaneous in action and therefore there is no millionth of a second between the two. The former is SPIRITUAL while the latter is LEGAL. The first has to do with being a "child" of God ("tekna" "child") while the latter has to do with being a legal heir of God ("huios" - "son"). The former is quickening by the Spirit while the latter is justifying by faith. -
The scriptures say you must believe to have "life" period.
Jhn 20:31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.
No mention of a regeneration to believe here, John says this book (John) is written that folks might believe. All that is required to believe is God's word.
There is also no mention of life before faith. This verse says that these words are written so that folks might believe, and that believing they might have life.
I could list another half dozen verses that show you must believe to have life, you cannot show even one verse that says you must have life to believe.
You may be following the "established" doctrine of Calvinism, but your doctrine has no scriptural support. You cannot show it.
If you are fine with that, what can I say? I could never believe a doctrine that is not clearly stated in scripture. -
Stop teaching falseness.
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Now again you say "Christians do stop sinning after they gets saved," an admission that you are sinless. Is that not correct?
You are also taking Scripture out of context. Let's look at it.
Philippians 2:12-13 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
From Gray's Concise Bible Commentary:
--This also agrees with the above. It is God that works your salvation out. He works in you, both to will and to do of his good pleasure. You must yield to his will.
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God says I am perfect and holy, so that is what I am. Therefore, I live my life perfecting holiness out of reverence to God, see 2 Corinthians 7:11. I gave you the words of God, but you reject them. If you do not reject them, then do you not believe what God says about His children?
2 Corinthians 7:1 Since we have these promises, dear friends, let us purify ourselves from everything that contaminates body and spirit, perfecting holiness out of reverence for God.
Why did you put “From Gray’s Concise Bible Commentary”? You probably have read from so many commentaries approved by your denomination, that you have not just studied the Bible for yourself and listened to the Holy Spirit.
God who knows our hearts will give His Spirit when He accepts us. That is the Word of God. -
The Biblicist Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
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We are not "quickened" until we have faith, the faith that comes AFTER we heard the message, and AFTER we were convinced, taught, and persuaded. That is what the Word of God says.
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2 Corinthians 7:11 For behold this selfsame thing, that ye sorrowed after a godly sort, what carefulness it wrought in you, yea, what clearing of yourselves, yea, what indignation, yea, what fear, yea, what vehement desire, yea, what zeal, yea, what revenge! In all things ye have approved yourselves to be clear in this matter.
--No wonder you don't want to quote this verse or talk about it. You have taken it out of context AGAIN.
First, what has this verse got to do with "perfecting holiness in the fear of God."??
Second, it has to do with a specific situation which took place in the first epistle.
Look carefully at the first phrase "Since we have these promises". What promises? Look back in chapter six.
2 Corinthians 6:17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you,
--Read the entire portion from verse 14 onward. He is speaking of separation from the world and ungodly things. Come out from among them.
And then he says:
2 Corinthians 7:1 Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.
--He is not quite finished yet with the ungodliness of the world. Cleanse yourself from all that filthiness that has contaminated both your flesh and your spirit. The world can have a devastation effect on you.
"perfecting holiness in the fear of God" speaks of our sanctification in Christ. The word "perfecting" means maturity. We mature in our holy walk with Christ as we stay away from the world and fear God. It has nothing to do with perfection, per se, but with maturity, a mature walk with Christ. The word "perfect" often means "complete" or "mature." It is defined by its context. Most words are.
For example, "I am going to play catch "the ball" my grandson throws to me, has a different meaning then, "she word an evening gown to 'the ball' last night." The context gives the meaning of the word.
Besides the various sources I have on different computer software, and the internet itself, I have a library of over 2,000 books that I can access. IOW I can use the wisdom that God has given to other men. Remember Paul, in his last days, asked Timothy to bring him his books, and especially the parchments. He was a well read man that in the book of Acts in one sermon quoted from a Greek poet, and in Titus he quoted from Cretian philosopher. He read other books. But you would condemn him from quoting from secular sources because Greek poetry isn't inspired literature, and neither is the philosophy of the Cretes. But those portions are now inspired aren't they?
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The Biblicist Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
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I gave an example of a person having to know something FOR THEMSELVES first, that is why I gave an example about Abraham and Isaac. Of course, you do not understand such spiritual things. As for you saying that God saved Abraham for just believing, you are hysterically incorrect.
The Call of Abram
Here we see God tells Abram to do something.
Genesis 12:1-4
The Lord had said to Abram, “Leave your country, your people and your father’s household and go to the land I will show you.
“I will make you into a great nation
And I will bless you;
I will make your name great,
And you will be a blessing.
I will bless those who bless you,
And whoever curses you I will curse;
And all peoples on earth
Will be blessed through you.”
SO ABRAM LEFT, AS THE LORD HAD TOLD HIM;
Now read what Paul says.
By faith Abraham, when called to go to a place he would later receive as his inheritance, obeyed and went, even though he did not know where he was going. Hebrews 11:8
Can you see that? By faith when called to go to a place he would later receive as his inheritance, OBEYED and went, even though he did NOT KNOW WHERE HE WAS GOING.
You throw heaps of insults at me, untruths, from out of your heart. I have shown you that Abraham's faith was working with his actions.
You teach against the Word of God. For even if we do not understand or know why God tells us to do things, we are to do them.
We are to BELIEVE AND OBEY.
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He believed (was saved). Then he obeyed.
That truth is elaborated on in Romans 4:1-5. Study it.
Abraham believed God and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
He was saved.
After that it talks about Abraham's works. He was saved first. -
Can you not read English? Maybe you just cannot see the Truth because you are caught in a snare.
You foolish man, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless? James 2:20
Do you know what USELESS MEANS? It does not mean it is the kind of faith that SAVES! It does NOT mean it useful for being saved!
In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead. James 2:17.
Do you know what DEAD MEANS? It does NOT mean ALIVE WHEN IT COMES TO BEING SAVED. IT IS DEAD.
As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead. James 2:26. -
Second, define faith.
It helps if we are on the same page here.
Third, do you realize the purpose of the Book of James, its context, why it was written? That also helps. You simply can't pull these verses out of the context of the book and use them to contradict what Paul has said in Romans 4:1-5. Why did you ignore that passage? -
You really need to understand WHO and WHAT Peter was speaking about when he says ignorant and unstable people distort what Paul says. Peter speaks about obeying…you have distorted what Paul says. Now you try to distort what James says. -
Here is the way the post went. Reread it.
I asked you to define "dead." You refused.
I asked you to define "faith." You refused.
I suggested you look and try and understand the context of James. You refused.
I suggested you look at how Abraham was saved as described in the epistle of Romans 4:1-5. You refused.
I didn't distort anything. You refused to look at Scripture.
Now concerning 2Pet.3:16, tell me who it applies to? Those who study the Scriptures or those who ignore the Scriptures.
It specifically says:
2 Peter 3:16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
You remain unlearned when you refuse to study the Word. -
You teach a dead faith, just like James says, and you should fear what Peter says about what you do. -
Gerhard Ebersoehn Active MemberSite Supporter
How many weirdo 'Christians' does one get .....
One plus point about that is one realises to answer every one is impossible .... Thank God!
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