I realize the Baptist whole is very fragmented these days but I'm interested in examining the more conservative Baptist doctrine such as IFB and SBC ... especially IFB. Eschatology, Calvin/Arminian and KJVO are excluded, please.
Is there any doctrine or tradition within these denominations that you might consider man-made or unbiblical? If so, what are they?
:saint:
What IFB or Traditional Baptist Doctrine Do You Reject? .....
Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by IveyLeaguer, Apr 5, 2010.
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Crabtownboy Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
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A few that stand out to me:
KJVO
Hymns only
Skirts/dresses only -
Baptist doctrine is pretty solid on the whole, especially the major, critical doctrines such as Inspiration, Who Jesus Is, the Resurrection, the Trinity, etc., etc.. I would not expect any disagreement of those here.
But as doctrine spreads from these basics, which are absolutely clear in Scripture, at some point in each direction we get to doctrine that is not so crystal clear and undeniable, at which point the traditions of men become infused to some degree or another. And inevitably, there are cases where traditions of men become Biblical doctrine in certain circles. This is what I'm interested in.
For example, there is an IFB preacher I know who claims and teaches that Baptist doctrine is equivalent to the Word of God, because they are one and the same. Another example ... many conservatives, Baptist and otherwise, would consider having a glass of wine or smoking a cigarette a sin. That's an obvious one.
And there are other weird doctrines that I've noticed from IFB circles, such as Heaven consisting of primarily Baptists, etc..
This is the sort of thing I'm looking for. Not so much to debate it, but to identify them.
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pinoybaptist Active MemberSite Supporter
Sunday School, choirs, special numbers, altar call, repeat-after-me-and-you're-saved. -
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Crabtownboy Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
"What is the beautiful garden?"
St. Peter says, "That is the Catholic and Orthodox garden.
The fellow looks around and see another garden, not quite as formal, and asks, "What garden is that."
"Oh," St. Peter replies, "that is the Anglican garden."
The man see a third garden, kind of a rambling garden. He is curious now and asks "What garden is that?"
"That is the Protestant garden," replies St. Peter.
The man looks ahead and asks, "What is that big windowless brick building ahead?"
St. Peter replies, "Don't talk too loudly. That is the Baptist Building and they think they are the only ones here."
Pinoybaptist said: Sunday School, choirs, special numbers, altar call
PB, just curious, not agruing ... what is wrong with Sunday School Choirs, special numbers and alter calls? -
The biggest one that comes to mind is tithing.
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Crabtownboy Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
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I would like to ask you to elaborate on your Sunday school and choir view a little by answering a couple of questions:
1. How would you approach a non-Sunday school fellowship, would it be the same just not called Sunday school?
2. How would you approach worship without a choir? are you talking band or simply having no choir at all?
thanks, Zach -
The "altar call". It is a doctrine. The SBC actually has(or had when I was with SBC 1995-2000) a course called Decision Time.
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Some of the things I'm not in complete agreement with would be:
head coverings for women
skirts/dresses only for women
no credit cards, ever
women should be silent during business meetings
overweight people cannot be on the platform (to sing, preach, etc) I'm NOT making this up--I actually know of an IFB college that had this rule! They thought it was a "bad testimony."
People who smoke cannot serve as teachers or leaders in the church
secondary separation--that is, you cannot be friends with another person of like faith if they are friends with another person who doesn't believe/dress/talk exactly the way you do
no going to movies
no babies allowed in church services--they must be taken to the nursery so they aren't a "distraction" even if they aren't crying
You must be re-baptized to join another church
To me, these are man-made rules and not really doctrinal issues, but IFB churches/pastors I know of preach them to BE "doctrines" or "traditions" of their churches. -
I've visited and worshipped in a lot of places that do things and believe things that I know are wrong, even silly. Yet, for the most part, they are genuine believers, who love the Lord. I've also visited churches, and one Baptist church in particular, where they are so far out and fanatic, I doubt anyone in the medium-sized congregation had a clue about sound doctrine. Certainly the leaders didn't.
The IFB retired pastor I mentioned is an elder in my church, though he is not representative of the pastor or the membership at large. He has some serious issues, IMHO, but I still love the guy and get along for the most part. He is KJVO, and if I understood him right several times over the past few years in private, Baptist only as well. And that idea stems from one of his IFB circle of pastors or associations, I'm pretty sure, which are not a part of our church. But I know he loves the Lord, and in most areas he is theologically well-versed and sound, even though he is closed to opposing thought and beliefs rather than being open and willing to test doctrine, like a Berean. There's an element of pride and self-righteousness there, if you know what I mean.
I guess, more than anything else, I'm looking for an apologetic to counter that sort of extremism as he is discipling several young believers in our church. I know firsthand what bad teaching can do to a young believer and the damage and destruction to the overall purpose of God that extremist theology causes.
I pretty much know how to defend against it, and more examples of bad doctrine or extremism will help in that defense. I also want to approach the issue broadly in order to minimize collateral damage, so all examples of errant Baptist teaching are helpful. Errant teachings of other denominations are much easier, I'm familiar with those.
So I appreciate the input.
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IL, the sort of extremism and rigidity you're referring to has driven many of the Lord's little lambs away from the Church down through the ages. I know of these kind of people very well. They drove me away from the Church as a young man. But God was gracious to me.
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And I would add Landmarkism to the list. 'God is able of these stones to raise up sons unto Abraham'. -
pinoybaptist Active MemberSite Supporter
I believe the study of Scriptures is to be an individual endeavor, not a classroom type one, or a group one, where there is a study leader, and doctrine spoon fed to the learner instead of the learner being taught by the Holy Spirit who the Lord designated as the teacher.
I used to sing in choirs before becoming a Primitive Baptist, and it struck me that practice was intended to provide for a perfect performance which no matter if the choir director is to be "pleasing to the Lord" so often end up really endeavoring to please the crowd.
The flesh always gets in the way in choir singing, and I don't care how vehemently that is denied.
I've seen it with my own eyes, heard it with my own ears, and also experienced it personally. -
Crabtownboy Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
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pinoybaptist Active MemberSite Supporter
If you feel you are absolutely holy, then be holy still, good for you.
I know what I saw, heard, and experienced.
It's MY sight, hearing, and experience.
If you have a different one, then pat yourself in the back and be sure to remind the Lord when you get to heaven that you were not like Pinoy Baptist. -
KJVO
Tithing (there is no tithing in the NT)
Standards for dress that = holiness
Rapture
Pre-trib
Pre-mill
Anything by Tim Lahaye
Adding:
Altar Call
Sinner's Prayer.
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