What is Reformed Theology?

[seekingthetruth]

That's not true. Reformed theology doesn't teach that people will go to hell "no matter how much they repent."

Yes it does....you see it as a person cannot feel remorse or repent unless God allows them....I see it as yes, God gave us all a concious, and it is up tp us to use it. When we start using it, the HS will teach us and guide us.

It is totally arrogant as a human to say that God "chose" you and rejected others, when we are all equally sinners....besides, what about all of the scripture where Jesus said things like "none should perish", ect, ect?

 

[DaChaser1]

After 50 words on this thread you're locked out - use them carefully :laugh:

Background for the question:
A friend and I are going over a book by John Piper, Desiring God, meditations of a Christian Hedonist [LINK] (his choice of books I assure you).

I've enjoyed a number of Piper's books but this book is overtly oriented in a Reformed direction from the start.
I'm not sure if he knows what Reformed means and am looking for a quicky definition. ---> and I'm not sure it's possible.

Rob

All died in Adam
All who God saves alive in Christ
Sinners refuse Jesus, God needs to give them new natures to receive jesus!

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

It is a result of human arrogance. We all want to feel special, and this is how some Christians attain that.

We are all equally sinners. Why would God unequally forgive us?

John

I look at that a bit differently John....what does God know about us that we dont? Answer....a whole lot. Probably more than we can fathom.

 

[seekingthetruth]

I look at that a bit differently John....what does God know about us that we dont? Answer....a whole lot. Probably more than we can fathom.

That doesnt change the fact that we are all equally sinners.

What makes one sinner better than another?

Jeffery Dalmer, Charles Manson, Adolph Hitler, or me....or you?

John

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

That doesnt change the fact that we are all equally sinners.

What makes one sinner better than another?

Jeffery Dalmer, Charles Manson, Adolph Hitler, or me....or you?

John

Ask God.....Im not God. Or perhaps you dont think He is fair.

If He showed complete mercy & magnanimity then nobody goes to hell right...all are saved right......but thats not what it says in scriptures. Also as a point of Justice, nobody truly deserves anything but Hell, we should all be there. But again we are not. Thank your Lord he has graced you. Thats His call & not yours.

 

[seekingthetruth]

Ask God.....Im not God. Or perhaps you dont think He is fair.

If He showed complete mercy & magnanimity then nobody goes to hell right...all are saved right......but thats not what it says in scriptures. Also as a point of Justice, nobody truly deserves anything anything but Hell, we should all be there. But again we are not. Thank your Lord he has graced you. Thats His call & not yours.

OK, yes, He has graced me, and He has graced you, but what makes us better than our neighbor? Do you really think you are special by birth? Or are you special by conviction?

John

 

[seekingthetruth]

Ask God.....Im not God. Or perhaps you dont think He is fair.

If He showed complete mercy & magnanimity then nobody goes to hell right...all are saved right......but thats not what it says in scriptures. Also as a point of Justice, nobody truly deserves anything but Hell, we should all be there. But again we are not. Thank your Lord he has graced you. Thats His call & not yours.

Also, it never says that "If He showed complete mercy & magnanimity then nobody goes to hell right...all are saved right"

It says that those that repent will never go to hell. It never says that "all are saved". What it says is that "whosoever will" will be saved.

Who does 'whosoever will" not include?

John

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

OK, yes, He has graced me, and He has graced you, but what makes us better than our neighbor? Do you really think you are special by birth? Or are you special by conviction?

John

John, seriously I have no idea! These are questions that remain unanswered & Im not the potter rather the creation so I cannot fathom His mind as to what He is up to. Would I prefer that in someway He saved all....yes I would. But I cannot ignore the clear teachings of the bible as much as my puny brain wants to scream that its unfair. One day we will all face the Lord & Im scared he is going to rip into us with the same condemnations He told ole Job .....how can you even try to fathom Me (my adaptation LOL). Truth is I cant. I can only stand there in awe. Then He will probably reveal it for now its completely unknown. Now we see a poor reflection in a mirror, then we will see face to face. I await that day in all humility.

 

[seekingthetruth]

John, seriously I have no idea! These are questions that remain unanswered & Im not the potter rather the creation so I cannot fathom His mind as to what He is up to. Would I prefer that in someway He saved all....yes I would. But I cannot ignore the clear teachings of the bible as much as my puny brain wants to scream that its unfair. One day we will all face the Lord & Im scared he is going to rip into us with the same condemnations He told ole Job .....how can you even try to fathom Me (my adaptation LOL). Truth is I cant. I can only stand there in awe. Then He will probably reveal it for now its completely unknown. Now we see a poor reflection in a mirror, then we will see face to face. I await that day in all humility.

Well, you implied that either we are saved by predistination without a choice, or we are all saved.

I believe both premises are wrong. We are saved if we believe tha Jesus died for us and we repent, and that is our choice.

Me, you, Jeffery Dalmer, Adolph Hitler and even Charles Manson...we all can be saved, but, most of us will choose not to be.

John

PS...maybe I will start a thread and ask who thinks that Charles Manson could be saved and go to heaven. We see things as humans, God sees things as creation. I believe that if Charles Manson burns in Hell that it is his choice to do so. He is no worse a sinner than you or I, and has every oppurtunity to get saved just like me and you.

I am no better than Charles Manson, and neither are you.

If you think you are indeed better than him, and deserve to go to heaven more than him, then please explain.

 

[DaChaser1]

Also, it never says that "If He showed complete mercy & magnanimity then nobody goes to hell right...all are saved right"

It says that those that repent will never go to hell. It never says that "all are saved". What it says is that "whosoever will" will be saved.

Who does 'whosoever will" not include?

John

You are misunderstanding what the Bible teaches referencing human will though brother!

ALL who go to hell have made the choice to reject jesus because that IS their very nature, God allowed them to exercise what thewy wanted, and they don't want to be with God!

NONE in hell want to go to heaven, even offered second chance, which they aren't, as God honord their final decision and 'free will" by allowing them to be seperated from him!

Why does He choice some, bypass others?

Its up to God to figure that out!

I would MUCH rather have God being that final arbritrator in salvation, not myself!

 

[seekingthetruth]

You are misunderstanding what the Bible teaches referencing human will though brother!

ALL who go to hell have made the choice to reject jesus because that IS their very nature, God allowed them to exercise what thewy wanted, and they don't want to be with God!

NONE in hell want to go to heaven, even offered second chance, which they aren't, as God honord their final decision and 'free will" by allowing them to be seperated from him!

Why does He choice some, bypass others?

Its up to God to figure that out!

I would MUCH rather have God being that final arbritrator in salvation, not myself!

"
"ALL who go to hell have made the choice to reject jesus because that IS their very nature, God allowed them to exercise what thewy wanted, and they don't want to be with God!"

Now you are saying that the lost made a choice to reject Jesus? In one thread you say that noone has a choice (In which case i say why do we even try?"), and in this thread you say that we do have a choice.....which is it?

if God allows us to 'exercise' what we want, then isnt that a choice?

John

 

[seekingthetruth]

You are misunderstanding what the Bible teaches referencing human will though brother!

Human will? I thought you Calvinists dont believe in human will. Doesnt the term "human will" imply a choice?

If I have will then I have a choice....if God decides without my imput, then i don't have a will.

it cant be both

John

 

[DHK]

If those who adhere to Reformed Theology were honest with themselves and the theology that they purport to expound, they would admit that they take the points of TULIP to an extreme, points that Calvin himself never totally believed in.

Concerning John 3:16, did Christ die for the sins of the whole world?
Reformed Theology says: "Absolutely not!"

Calvin says:

16. For God so loved the world. Christ opens up the first cause, and, as it were, the source of our salvation, and he does so, that no doubt may remain; for our minds cannot find calm repose, until we arrive at the unmerited love of God. As the whole matter of our salvation must not be sought any where else than in Christ, so we must see whence Christ came to us, and why he was offered to be our Savior. Both points are distinctly stated to us: namely, that faith in Christ brings life to all, and that Christ brought life, because the Heavenly Father loves the human race, and wishes that they should not perish. And this order ought to be carefully observed; for such is the wicked ambition which belongs to our nature, that when the question relates to the origin of our salvation, we quickly form diabolical imaginations about our own merits. Accordingly, we imagine that God is reconciled to us, because he has reckoned us worthy that he should look upon us. But Scripture everywhere extols his pure and unmingled mercy, which sets aside all merits.

Reformed Theology (and most of today's Calvinists) deny what Calvin himself believed.



As far as TULIP itself is concerned, this is an enigma. These letters of course are English. Calvin was in Geneva, where Dutch was spoken, as well as low German. Either way, Calvin would not have been speaking English, nor were his works originally written in English. So much for TULIP.

 

[mont974x4]

I agree with your discription of man in his fallen state. Where i would disagree is in the idea that God simply rejects some men from grace. This is where the arrogance comes in. What makes one man worthy of God's "irresistable Grace" and another totally deprived of it? Both men are equally sinners. Why are you better than anyone else?

Don't equal sinners deserve equal consideration, equal judgement, and equal forgiveness?

BTW, Calvinists are just as evil as Jeffery Dalmer or Adolf Hitler......why do you deserve Grace and not them?

John

I am only "better" because God Himself chose to make me so. There is no good in me except that which is Christ alone.


Rom 9:13 Just as it is written, "JACOB I LOVED, BUT ESAU I HATED."
Rom 9:14 What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? May it never be!
Rom 9:15 For He says to Moses, "I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOM I HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL HAVE COMPASSION ON WHOM I HAVE COMPASSION."
Rom 9:16 So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy.
Rom 9:17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "FOR THIS VERY PURPOSE I RAISED YOU UP, TO DEMONSTRATE MY POWER IN YOU, AND THAT MY NAME MIGHT BE PROCLAIMED THROUGHOUT THE WHOLE EARTH."
Rom 9:18 So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.
Rom 9:19 You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?"
Rom 9:20 On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, "Why did you make me like this," will it?
Rom 9:21 Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use?
Rom 9:22 What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction?
Rom 9:23 And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory,
Rom 9:24 even us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles. (NASB)

 

[seekingthetruth]

I am only "better" because God Himself chose to make me so. There is no good in me except that which is Christ alone.


Rom 9:13 Just as it is written, "JACOB I LOVED, BUT ESAU I HATED."
Rom 9:14 What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? May it never be!
Rom 9:15 For He says to Moses, "I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOM I HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL HAVE COMPASSION ON WHOM I HAVE COMPASSION."
Rom 9:16 So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy.
Rom 9:17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "FOR THIS VERY PURPOSE I RAISED YOU UP, TO DEMONSTRATE MY POWER IN YOU, AND THAT MY NAME MIGHT BE PROCLAIMED THROUGHOUT THE WHOLE EARTH."
Rom 9:18 So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.
Rom 9:19 You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?"
Rom 9:20 On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, "Why did you make me like this," will it?
Rom 9:21 Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use?
Rom 9:22 What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction?
Rom 9:23 And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory,
Rom 9:24 even us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles. (NASB)

Yes, I have read and studied all of the scriptures that Calvinists use to support reformed theology.

You totally misinterpret them and intentionally make them fit to your personal beliefs.

I can quote many, many scriptures that state point blank that Jesus came to save everyone that would accept him. All you can do is take scriptures out of context and try to make a case that you are 'special" and 'chosen". None of your scriptures state point blank that God only saves special people, you and others make this up.

Calvinism is the theology of arrogance and pride. You are only chosen if you choose to be. Anyone can be chosen if they choose to be.....that's why the punishment for rejecting Christ is Hell.

Calvinists are no better than the worst sinner that ever lived....the only difference between me and that worst sinner is that I am forgiven because I asked to be.

Arrogance, pride, conceit, oh the sin of pride, are you sure that's who you want to be?


Read the Bible for what it says, not what your pride wants it to say, and show me where Calvinism is supported point blank, without any prideful human logic added.


John

 

[seekingthetruth]

Luke2427 calls it 'systematic theology'.

Fancy words for "since the Bible doesn't state it point blank, I will use human logic and twist it to make it what I want it to be"

If the Bible taught calvinism, then human logic and reasoning would not be needed

John

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

If those who adhere to Reformed Theology were honest with themselves and the theology that they purport to expound, they would admit that they take the points of TULIP to an extreme, points that Calvin himself never totally believed in.

Concerning John 3:16, did Christ die for the sins of the whole world?
Reformed Theology says: "Absolutely not!"

Calvin says:



Reformed Theology (and most of today's Calvinists) deny what Calvin himself believed.



As far as TULIP itself is concerned, this is an enigma. These letters of course are English. Calvin was in Geneva, where Dutch was spoken, as well as low German. Either way, Calvin would not have been speaking English, nor were his works originally written in English. So much for TULIP.

Please....If we took everything Calvin said was true we would also be Paedo Baptists & be insisting that infant Baptism is a symbolic circumcision.

 

[matt wade]

Please....If we took everything Calvin said was true we would also be Paedo Baptists & be insisting that infant Baptism is a symbolic circumcision.

That's right...he was a genius except for those areas where he was influenced by his culture.... :laugh:

 

[DHK]

Please....If we took everything Calvin said was true we would also be Paedo Baptists & be insisting that infant Baptism is a symbolic circumcision.

Please!! His quote seems to indicate he didn't believe in the basics of TULIP itself, like Limited Atonement. Christ died for the sins of the world. How can you ascribe TULIP to Calvin when it is obvious he didn't believe it. I believe the same quote would repudiate Unconditional Election. People should find out what he believes before attributing to him what he does not believe.

 

[Tom Butler]

I agree with your discription of man in his fallen state. Where i would disagree is in the idea that God simply rejects some men from grace. This is where the arrogance comes in. What makes one man worthy of God's "irresistable Grace" and another totally deprived of it? Both men are equally sinners. Why are you better than anyone else?

Don't equal sinners deserve equal consideration, equal judgement, and equal forgiveness?

BTW, Calvinists are just as evil as Jeffery Dalmer or Adolf Hitler......why do you deserve Grace and not them?

John

John, a couple of things jumped out at me in your post.

One, your question "what makes one man worthy of God's "irresistible grace...."
Actually no man is worthy of God's grace, otherwise it's not grace.

Second "Don't equal sinners deserve.....?"
None of us deserves anything from God. If we do, it's not grace.

Third "...why do you deserve grace and not them."
See answer to previous question.