What is Reformed Theology?

[seekingthetruth]

John, a couple of things jumped out at me in your post.

One, your question "what makes one man worthy of God's "irresistible grace...."
Actually no man is worthy of God's grace, otherwise it's not grace.

Second "Don't equal sinners deserve.....?"
None of us deserves anything from God. If we do, it's not grace.

Third "...why do you deserve grace and not them."
See answer to previous question.

Ok, I agree with everything you said....but you tell me then why Calvinists believe that they receive this Grace and others are denied?

John

 

[jbh28]

Yes it does

no it doesn't. Show me one reformed article that says that. you won't find one. What you are doing is taking a reformed statement and fitting it in with your beliefs and then making that statement. It's more of a misunderstanding on your part.

....you see it as a person cannot feel remorse or repent unless God allows them

enabled...not allow. you are using the wrong terms which have very different meanings.

....I see it as yes, God gave us all a concious, and it is up tp us to use it. When we start using it, the HS will teach us and guide us.

ok

It is totally arrogant as a human to say that God "chose" you and rejected others, when we are all equally sinners....besides, what about all of the scripture where Jesus said things like "none should perish", ect, ect?

conscience....
How is it arrogant to say as a human that God chose me, but not because of anything good in me? There is no arrogance at all with that.

What about what Jesus said? All that believe will be saved. No Calvinist will disagree with that.

btw, God could have done it the way you have described. Man has no right to salvation. People that don't believe don't want to believe.


ps. sorry for the multiple reply posts. I should have combined them together. I do think you are asking some honest questions, let's just keep the arrogance/prideful comments out. I will explain why here and in a post below.

 

[jbh28]

That doesnt change the fact that we are all equally sinners.

What makes one sinner better than another?

Jeffery Dalmer, Charles Manson, Adolph Hitler, or me....or you?

John

nothing, that's why we cannot boast in our salvation nor boast in our election. condition election would have an issue with what you said, but not unconditional election. God didn't choose me because I'm better than another person. I'm not. I'm a sinner. I deserve hell. God showed me mercy, something I didn't deserve.

 

[jbh28]

Ok, I agree with everything you said....but you tell me then why Calvinists believe that they receive this Grace and others are denied?

John

What's your answer?

As for me, Ephesians 1:11. It's nothing in the person that earns or merits grace. I received grace not because of anything in me nor anything I did but because of the good pleasure of God's will. I don't believe I received grace because I was smarter than another person so I knew to accept. I believe I had a depraved hart(heart of stone) and God changed it to a heart of flesh. Ezekiel 36:26

 

[jbh28]

Calvinism is the theology of arrogance and pride. You are only chosen if you choose to be. Anyone can be chosen if they choose to be.....that's why the punishment for rejecting Christ is Hell.

So, you would say that a Calvinist, who believes he was chosen apart from anything good in him including a choice, is arrogant, but a person who believes that he was chosen because he chose isn't? That doesn't make sense? How can I be prideful if God choosing me had nothing to do with anything about me, my works or my decision?

Calvinists are no better than the worst sinner that ever lived....the only difference between me and that worst sinner is that I am forgiven because I asked to be.

so you have reason to have pride(not saying you do) But I don't because the difference between the "worst sinner" and me is that I'm justified because of the shed blood of Christ.


See John, you are saying Calvinist have nothing to boast about. Calvinist believe in unconditional election. So it cannot be because of anything in us. If one believes he is chosen because he was smart enough to believe in Jesus, then he could boast in his election.


Many believe that election works like this: Jesus stands at the gate of heaven. People come to him in repentance and faith. He chooses to accept some that come and rejects others. This isn't election. This isn't Calvinistic election. This is definitely not biblical election.

Instead, it's more like this: Jesus stands at the gate of heaven. He calls for people to repent and believe in him. People refuse to believe or repent. Jesus in his mercy saves some.

Remember, we don't deserve heaven. We deserve hell. God in his mercy saves some. He doesn't have to save all. He has promised that everyone that believes will be saved. That is 100% true. The question is why does one believe and not another? Is it the person, then he has something to boast about. Is it God, then the person has nothing to boast about.

 

[Iconoclast]

A product of the Reformation.

Characterized by the 5 Solas

Theological stance in which God is sovereign in the election of lost souls to salvation, based on grace and nothing in the sinner of any merit.


How's that?

That is good....unlike several who post in here and do not seem to comprehend any of it at all:thumbs:

 

[Iconoclast]

So, you would say that a Calvinist, who believes he was chosen apart from anything good in him including a choice, is arrogant, but a person who believes that he was chosen because he chose isn't? That doesn't make sense? How can I be prideful if God choosing me had nothing to do with anything about me, my works or my decision?
so you have reason to have pride(not saying you do) But I don't because the difference between the "worst sinner" and me is that I'm justified because of the shed blood of Christ.


See John, you are saying Calvinist have nothing to boast about. Calvinist believe in unconditional election. So it cannot be because of anything in us. If one believes he is chosen because he was smart enough to believe in Jesus, then he could boast in his election.


Many believe that election works like this: Jesus stands at the gate of heaven. People come to him in repentance and faith. He chooses to accept some that come and rejects others. This isn't election. This isn't Calvinistic election. This is definitely not biblical election.

Instead, it's more like this: Jesus stands at the gate of heaven. He calls for people to repent and believe in him. People refuse to believe or repent. Jesus in his mercy saves some.

Remember, we don't deserve heaven. We deserve hell. God in his mercy saves some. He doesn't have to save all. He has promised that everyone that believes will be saved. That is 100% true. The question is why does one believe and not another? Is it the person, then he has something to boast about. Is it God, then the person has nothing to boast about.

Good post jbh....if you read what some have posted we are all sinners...but they are saved because of what they did,,,that the other sinners did not do...sounds alot like .....Lord I thank thee that I am not like other men......because I choose

 

[Tom Butler]

Ok, I agree with everything you said....but you tell me then why Calvinists believe that they receive this Grace and others are denied?

John

I don't know why God shed his grace on me, put me under the sound of the gospel, sent the Holy Spirit to show me my sin and convict me, created a desire within me to repent of sin and trust him alone for salvation.

I don't know why there are people today who have never heard the gospel, and that includes some in America.

I don't know why there are millions and millions in China who have been cut off from hearing the gospel.

I don't know why all those people in Athens never heard the gospel until Paul came and preached to them.

All I know is that God extended grace to me, who is no better than those who've never heard the gospel.

If God has saved you, it is because he chose you, convicted you, illuminated your mind, drew you to repentance and faith. It is not a cause for arrogance or smugness.

 

[thomas15]

50 words...

Todays reformed theology is a system attempting to explain the Bible and Jehovah God's relationship with man via 3 covenants (works, redemption, grace) which are not found in the Bible. It is characterized by the idea that the actual covenants given to the Israelites belong to the New Testament assembly.

 

[Deacon]

Todays reformed theology is a system attempting to explain the Bible and Jehovah God's relationship with man via 3 covenants (works, redemption, grace) which are not found in the Bible. It is characterized by the idea that the actual covenants given to the Israelites belong to the New Testament assembly.

WHOA - we've go a winner!
...and exactly 50 words!

I think I'll throw in a bit about TULIP and the Westminster Confessions and that should do it.

Thanks Thomas.

Rob

 

[thomas15]

WHOA - we've go a winner!
...and exactly 50 words!

I think I'll throw in a bit about TULIP and the Westminster Confessions and that should do it.

Thanks Thomas.

Rob

Rob, It was a labor of love.

I must confess though, in my weakness I wanted to mention the lip service given to sola Scriptura espoused by those who call themselves reformed but opted to stay within the bounds, terms and conditions of the question mentioned in the OP.

 

[Van]

Reformed Theology covers more than just Soteriology. The Calvinistic TULIP addresses that part of Reformed Theology concerning Soteriology.

This view teaches we were saved or damned from all eternity for all eternity and nothing we can do will alter that foreordained outcome for ourselves or our loved ones.

The majority of Christians, myself included, believe one or more aspects of the TULIP are false doctrines.

 

[DaChaser1]

Human will? I thought you Calvinists dont believe in human will. Doesnt the term "human will" imply a choice?

If I have will then I have a choice....if God decides without my imput, then i don't have a will.

it cant be both

John

Both cals/Non cals hold to man having a will...

We hold that its now under the bondage of the sin nature/flesh, so we can still make decisions, its just that our very natures right preclude us being able to accept Christ, we will naturally reject him!

Non cals hold that we still have free will same as Adam had, that we can fullly accept/reject Christ!

All depemds on one defines "free will!"

We do NOT see human as robots, just forced by God blindly to trust in Christ!

 

[DaChaser1]

If those who adhere to Reformed Theology were honest with themselves and the theology that they purport to expound, they would admit that they take the points of TULIP to an extreme, points that Calvin himself never totally believed in.

Concerning John 3:16, did Christ die for the sins of the whole world?
Reformed Theology says: "Absolutely not!"

Calvin says:



Reformed Theology (and most of today's Calvinists) deny what Calvin himself believed.



As far as TULIP itself is concerned, this is an enigma. These letters of course are English. Calvin was in Geneva, where Dutch was spoken, as well as low German. Either way, Calvin would not have been speaking English, nor were his works originally written in English. So much for TULIP.

there has always been discussions among cals IF calvin held to limited/unlimited atonement, so no new news here!

I hold to 4 points of DoG, so personally see no problem it being either way!

 

[DaChaser1]

Reformed Theology covers more than just Soteriology. The Calvinistic TULIP addresses that part of Reformed Theology concerning Soteriology.

This view teaches we were saved or damned from all eternity for all eternity and nothing we can do will alter that foreordained outcome for ourselves or our loved ones.

The majority of Christians, myself included, believe one or more aspects of the TULIP are false doctrines.

reformed baptists hold to all aspects of reformed theology, including TULIP/Covenant theology etc

many non reformed baptists here hold to just the sotierology aspect of DoG/TULIP!

 

[Van]

If you say that he died for every human being in the same way, then you have to define the nature of the atonement very differently than you would if you believed that Christ only died for those who actually believe. In the first case you would believe that the death of Christ did not actually save anybody; it only made all men savable. It did not actually remove God's punitive wrath from anyone, but instead created a place where people could come and find mercy—IF they could accomplish their own new birth and bring themselves to faith without the irresistible grace of God.

This is the typical baloney fed to believers in Calvinistic churches.

What the Bible actually teaches is Christ provided reconciliation to all men, but only believers "receive" the reconciliation. Therefore Christ's death accomplished two things, (1) He became the propitiation or means of salvation for the whole world, all mankind, and (2) He became our justification, sanctification and redemption for those God puts in Christ, those whose faith God credits as righteousness.

So lets add up the false statements in the Calvinist mantra:

Christ's death did not save anybody. The truth is Christ's death saved everyone put in Christ. And it made all men savable. It is not either/or, it is both. Do you really think this is atad too difficult for the Calvinist wise men to grasp, or are they providing misinformation on purpose?

Christ's death did not remove the penalty of sin from anyone? The truth is when God puts a person spiritually in Christ, they undergo the circumcision of Christ where the body of flesh (sin) is removed.

Does Christ's death provide a place, a propitiation, where the lost can find mercy? Yes, but not by entering all by themselves. Scripture clearly teaches we do not enter Christ, God puts us in Christ, 1 Corinthians 1:30.

Do we bring ourselves to faith without God's grace? No, God sets before us life or death and begs us to choose life. But He alone sovereignly credits our faith, or not and puts us in Christ, or not, we do not save ourselves for it does not depend upon the man that wills but upon God.

Reformed Theology does not accurately reflect what the bible teaches, and worse, it misrepresents what other views teach.

 

[agedman]

This is the typical baloney fed to believers in Calvinistic churches.

What the Bible actually teaches is Christ provided reconciliation to all men, but only believers "receive" the reconciliation. Therefore Christ's death accomplished two things, (1) He became the propitiation or means of salvation for the whole world, all mankind, and (2) He became our justification, sanctification and redemption for those God puts in Christ, those whose faith God credits as righteousness.

So lets add up the false statements in the Calvinist mantra:

Christ's death did not save anybody. The truth is Christ's death saved everyone put in Christ. And it made all men savable. It is not either/or, it is both. Do you really think this is a tad too difficult for the Calvinist wise men to grasp, or are they providing misinformation on purpose?

Christ's death did not remove the penalty of sin from anyone? The truth is when God puts a person spiritually in Christ, they undergo the circumcision of Christ where the body of flesh (sin) is removed.

Does Christ's death provide a place, a propitiation, where the lost can find mercy? Yes, but not by entering all by themselves. Scripture clearly teaches we do not enter Christ, God puts us in Christ, 1 Corinthians 1:30.

Do we bring ourselves to faith without God's grace? No, God sets before us life or death and begs us to choose life. But He alone sovereignly credits our faith, or not and puts us in Christ, or not, we do not save ourselves for it does not depend upon the man that wills but upon God.

I don't know if any of the forum folks noticed, but Van is becoming a Calvinistic thinker.

Look at what he posted. It fits the Calvinistic thinking even though he wants to claim his thinking as something else.


Each statement he made in support of his view is Calvinist and I the even used bold in his own post to show proof.

Welcome, Van!

 

[Van]

I can almost hear "Run-away" on my radio. If you think Calvinism's limited atonement teaches Jesus became the propitiation for all mankind, I have a bridge in Brooklyn for you.

But, yes, many of the facets of Calvinism hit the mark. I think you should file that under the grace of God's revelation.

 

[DaChaser1]

I can almost hear "Run-away" on my radio. If you think Calvinism's limited atonement teaches Jesus became the propitiation for all mankind, I have a bridge in Brooklyn for you.

But, yes, many of the facets of Calvinism hit the mark. I think you should file that under the grace of God's revelation.

think more accurate to say that the non cals/arms "hitting" many theological marks would be direct result of the Grace of God in his divine revelation!

 

[kyredneck]

"....a Protestant theological system and an approach to the Christian life.[1] The Reformed tradition was advanced by several theologians such as Martin Bucer, Heinrich Bullinger, Peter Martyr Vermigli, and Huldrych Zwingli, but this branch of Christianity bears the name of the French reformer John Calvin (Jean Cauvin in Middle French) because of his prominent influence on it and because of his role in the confessional and ecclesiastical debates throughout the 16th century......"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reformed_theology