:BangHead: When are you all going to get it through your heads I'm not talking about pastors?? Great googly moogly!!!These are issues inherent in every evangelistic church in the world and I object to your attempting to disparage the SBC churches without good cause. The problem exists everywhere.
From a sign outside a church in Northern Ireland: "If we'd been born where they were born and taught what they were taught, we would believe what they believe." Jesus saved his most outward displays of anger for the self-righteous. The Pharisees and Sadducees knew the law and boasted of sinless perfection. They dubbed themselves the celestial scorekeepers here on earth.
Jesus called them blind guides. Fools. Hypocrites. A brood of vipers. Whitewashed graves. Clean on the outside but dead within. But despite His criticism of the Pharisees and their political followers, recall what Jesus told His closest followers the first time He sent them out. He told them to heal, cure, and comfort, proclaiming God's name, restoration, repentance and truth along the way. And he added,
Matthew 10, NASBNote, He doesn't add, "And leavest thou a flaming bag of poo on their doorstep, and drapeth their olive trees in Charmin."
4 "Whoever does not receive you, nor heed your words, as you go out of that house or that city, shake the dust off your feet."
Jesus is telling us to let it go. Self-righteous outrage is not worth the trouble. When judgment comes, He will be the sword. Meanwhile, we should save the words of outrage, demands for justice and advocacy of systems of belief. They hold little value. He doesn't want our words nearly so much as He wants our lives. And He was sent by the Father to show us how to live them.
I pray that we transform our outer rage into both inward and outward action. First that we examine ourselves, park our anger in a corner, lose our unreasonable demands for justice in a fallen and unjust world, and lay aside our reliance on systems and expend that energy elsewhere.
Feed the hungry. Heal the sick. Aid the defenseless. Advocate for those on the margins. Most of all, preach the Gospel, a call to repentance spoken in love and truth ending with an invitation grounded in the cross and the tomb.
What the Gospel is not
Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by thisnumbersdisconnected, May 18, 2014.
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"inherent in every evangelistic church in the world."
I disagree, and you have no way of proving of that. The statement is universal and absolute. It assumes you have been to all evangelistic churches.
"There is a church outside Ireland" So? That has nothing to do with me.
"I pray that 'we' transform our outer rage." Who is the "we"? I don't have outer rage.
"Preach the gospel." I do.
I am responsible for my local church; not for the world. We each have our own sphere of ministry. There is not one of us that is responsible for the "entire evangelistic world." We do what we can where we can. No one can be a spokesperson for the world, and whitewash the world with the same symptoms. Only God has the eyes to make such far-reaching judgments. -
Really, DHK, your participation here has been eristic, with no other apparent purpose. I have to wonder why. -
For example, when John MacArthur saw the problem of the Charasmatic Movement permeating almost every sphere of Christianity, including almost every part of the world, he did something about it. He has written at least three books on the subject and has preached on it numerous times.
The Charismatic movement is pervasive. I encounter it on the mission field over in Asia. It is everywhere. There is nowhere where it doesn't have its tentacles.
But the symptoms that you describe are relevant only to certain churches/cultures/ etc. It is something I have been trying to narrow down. That is why I first mentioned the SBC. It certainly isn't the entire "body of Christ," as you define it. They symptoms you describe are not indicative on the churches I minister to in Asia for example. They are far from it.
Yes, preach against sin. I have been saying that all along. It is our duty: both to the believer and unbeliever alike. -
DHK and others have said they don't see the problem I have been attempting to describe. I say maybe we all need to look harder, because it is there.
A good example is Mark Hall's account of the public reaction to Casting Crown's song "Jesus, Friend of Sinners." He talks about it in the book he wrote to go with the group's latest album, "Thrive", in Chapter 26.
Hall said he received two criticisms. The lyrics that attracted the most flack were these:
Nobody knows what we're for
Only what we're against
When we judge the wounded.
What if we put down our signs,
Crossed over the lines
And loved like You did?
The first was, "I can't believe you would suggest that we support abortion." Good grief! First, Casting Crowns has recorded at least a half dozen pro-life songs. Second, he says that by the time the protestors at abortion clinics get there with signs and start screaming "You're killing your child!" they are several years too late. Hall suggests that they use the time they have to prepare their protests and make their signs to instead spend a half-hour every week at the church discipling young girls before they ever get to the point of needing to make the decision most of them don't want to make in the first place.
The problem isn't when the girls or women get to the abortion clinic. The problem is somewhere in their past, when Daddy left and Mommy stopped caring, or had to work two jobs to put food on the table and didn't have the time or energy to care, or did care but most of all, the little girl needed Daddy. Any of those scenarios leads to bad decisions.
The second complaint he got regarding the song was typical of what I sometimes see here, on this board: "I love your ministry and I love your music, but I just have a problem with this song because Jesus was not a friend of sinners. He was holy and He can have no fellowship with sin and cannot tolerate sin. We are all enemies of God until we are saved. God cannot have fellowship with sin."
To this Hall asks, "What is a friend?" Does he/she approve of everything a friend does? No. It is as I (me, thisnumber) has been saying all along, Jesus meets people where they are at, and He did so when He walked Earth in the flesh, too. Again as I've said, He told them the truth in love. That's all He did, and we are to do the same.
Jesus welcomed children into His presence, let them sit on His lap, or He'd crouch down to talk to them. They were sinners too, but He loved them and loved on them. He touched lepers, who were considered pariahs. He treated women with love, respect and dignity. He ate with tax collectors, the filth of the first century as far as the Jewish community -- and just about all others as well -- was concerned. He called the most hated man in town, Zacchaeus, down out of his tree perch and said, "Hey, come down. I want to eat lunch with you today." And what happened? This "wee little" tax collector confessed his sins and immediately stated publicly before his God that he would make everyone he had wronged whole again.
People thought they were giving Hall a theology lesson in their criticism of the song "Jesus, Friend of Sinners." What he heard -- what they were saying -- was that they are mad because the world is lost, and sins. Earlier in the chapter, Hall speaks of the "grace-vs.-law" reaction we have to sin. When it's ours, we expect grace. But when someone sins against us, we bring down the law on them, complete with charts and graphs and a grilling during which we expect a full confession and apology.
It's like picking our nose. How often do we do that every day? What do we do when we stop at a traffic signal and see someone else doing it? "Eww, that's disgusting!" Right? What makes us think we're invisible? We're just as vile and disgusting to others as they are to us. Yet we expect forgiveness without giving it ourselves? What does Jesus say about our not offering forgiveness?
Matthew 6, NASBSeems pretty definitive to me. People don't even have to know you forgive them. Forgiveness isn't for them, anyway. It is for us.
15 "But if you do not forgive others, then your Father will not forgive your transgressions."
Please don't go off the deep end here as you have with the rest of the thread. I'm not accusing anyone of anything. All these statements are general in nature. Not everyone is guilty, and those who are, aren't guilty all the time. I'm as guilty as anyone, perhaps more so.
There is a problem, though, and I believe the reaction to Hall's song on the album "The Well" proves that. Maybe others here don't, and if you don't, just continue what you're doing. For me, I intend to try to be more aware of my reactions, to be loving, and to do the will of God. -
The Biblicist Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
Despising that which is holy begins with passivity toward things that should cause righteous indignation. The obvious and profound moral shift in our cultural is gaining extreme public headway because professed Christians are experiencing the "frog in the pot" syndrome.
Pulpits in our country have shifted from moral outrage to tolerance, and from tolerance to acceptance and acceptance to silence. Might your posts characterize such a process in your own attitude?????
Tell me, what do you think God thought of the moral outrage of the following person:
Nmb. 25:6 ¶ And, behold, one of the children of Israel came and brought unto his brethren a Midianitish woman in the sight of Moses, and in the sight of all the congregation of the children of Israel, who were weeping before the door of the tabernacle of the congregation.
7 And when Phinehas, the son of Eleazar, the son of Aaron the priest, saw it, he rose up from among the congregation, and took a javelin in his hand;
8 And he went after the man of Israel into the tent, and thrust both of them through, the man of Israel, and the woman through her belly. So the plague was stayed from the children of Israel.
If your response is this was under "law" instead of Grace then what about this example of moral outrage:
Acts 13:8 But Elymas the sorcerer (for so is his name by interpretation) withstood them, seeking to turn away the deputy from the faith.
9 Then Saul, (who also is called Paul,) filled with the Holy Ghost, set his eyes on him,
10 And said, O full of all subtilty and all mischief, thou child of the devil, thou enemy of all righteousness, wilt thou not cease to pervert the right ways of the Lord?
11 And now, behold, the hand of the Lord is upon thee, and thou shalt be blind, not seeing the sun for a season. And immediately there fell on him a mist and a darkness; and he went about seeking some to lead him by the hand.
Could it be that America needs more indignant righteousness than passive tolerance under the disguise of "love" or sloppy agape??? Share the gospel in a loving spirit but make sure you let them know God's moral outrage at the sin and nothing can express that moral outrage than letting them know that God's wrath IS abidng over unbelievers (Jn. 3:36) and warn them to flee from the wrath to come.
The new birth is in essence, the impartation of the moral taste bud of God, so that the believer loves what God loves and hates what God hates. God's moral taste bud has not changed from Genesis to Revelation as He is immutable in nature. People change but God does not. What causes righteous indignation with God should cause righteous indignation in His children. If not, then his children are not reflecting his moral loves and hates.
The gospel reflects both God's moral outrage against sin and calls for repentance and His love for sinners in calling them to believe in Christ. -
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Secondly, these examples you cite are irrelevant to the subject of this thread. They deal with sin within the body -- the body of Israel, to be sure, but nonetheless, within the body of those whom God has adopted as sons. Therefore it is an example that utterly fails to address the issue of our outrage on the one hand (more conservative believers) and a demand for justice on the other (among the liberal believers), as well as the "do-nothings" who talk about systems of belief rather than address the need of faith and repentance in the world. Those three things are what this thread is about.
We have no right to express "outrage" at anything, given we were never outraged at our own sin before we laid it at the foot of the cross. We have no right to demand justice for anyone given such justice would necessarily result in their punishment, not the "free pass" such demands seek. And we have no right to yammer on about "systems" when it is not a system the sinner needs.
Yes, talk about sin. Talk about the sin we left at the cross. Talk about the love and grace we found at the cross. No one is going to be won to the cross only by hearing about their sin. They need to know about their sin, without doubt, but they need to be taken from the depths of hopelessness regarding that sin, to the heights of hope, love, grace, mercy and peace at the feet of Jesus.
You don't get there from here with "outrage." That vehicle takes you farther from love than almost any other emotion there is. The depth of the lack of understanding regarding that truth is stupefying. -
The Biblicist Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
Your personal opinion for sure, but not mine!
Rom. 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
Do you understand the meaning of "IS" or are you going to join Bill Clinton and debate what the the meaning of "is" is?????? This is a New Testament presentation of God's wrath and it is not in the context of the body of Christ or believers but unbelievers.
Do you know the meaning of repentance???? Apparently not! True repentance includes a change of heart toward sin, so that you view sin as God does in so much you take sides with God against self and your sins,utterly hating the defilment of sin. True conviction over sin is inclusive of hate toward sin.
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I won't deal with the rest of your "reply." It is arrogant self-righteous nonsense that deliberately misreads what I've said, ignores previous comments I've made on the thread, and generally attempts to make you appear as my moral and exegetical superior when your words obviously prove you to be neither. You insist on being morally outraged and systematically inhibited. You're welcome to it. -
Revmitchell Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed....Rom 1:24 Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves,
Rom 1:25 because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever! Amen.
Giving them up to the lusts of their heart is the wrath of God and it means He will no longer offer them grace.
Your position is actually unorthodox. What is commonly believed and preached is what I have laid out. -
Standing :applause::applause::applause: -
The Biblicist Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
Elymas was a LOST person regardless how he figures into the circumstance and Paul did not deal lovingly with this LOST person. Paul did not lovingly and tenderly point him to the lofty truths of the cross but rather handle him in obvious righteous indignation. You can weasel around this all you like but it does not change any contextual facts whatsoever. He was a LOST man and Paul did not deal with this LOST man lovingly but in righteous indignation.
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Iconoclast Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
These two statements display a lack of understanding of the fundamental truths of the fall and the gospel.
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James 1:22 talks about being a Christian, "But prove yourselves doers of the word, and not merely hearers who delude themselves." Being is active. Belief is a verb.
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Humanly speaking - I don't think it's possible for one human being to convict another of sin without the direct intervention of the Holy Spirit before, during or after said preaching of the Gospel.
Not that sin cannot be preached during the presentation of the gospel (and, in fact, should be preached and related to His death, burial and resurrection).
The point - leave conviction of sin the the Holy Spirit, it is not our responsibility. Relating sin to the gospel, of course, but only the Spirit can convict.
HankD -
That's what I believe as well. We can just speak. We have no power to convince, that is in His perfect hands. We are just an instrument, and the reality is, He doesn't need us at all. One prisoner doing a lengthy sentence eagerly went to a chapel service because he knew the minister coming into the facility was going to pass out New Testaments -- and he couldn't afford cigarette papers from the commissary. He used the pages of the Bible. After several months, he had worked his way to John -- and stopped. The words caught his eye. He read the page -- then the back of it. Then the rest of the Gospel. And got down on his knees, convicted of his sin, cried out to God and asked to receive Christ.
We're just the delivery boy. Christ is the message. If we give it in love, He will do the rest. If we yammer, condemn and browbeat, they've turned us off before the Holy Spirit has a chance to do His work. -
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It is unavoidable to let the "old man" live when presenting the Gospel?
It is unavoidable to avoid sinners?
It is unavoidable to attempt to restore the nation to the intent of the founding fathers when preaching the Gospel?
It is unavoidable to engage in mysticism in presenting the Gospel?
Please: Next time actually read the post.
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