The verse I gave with that concernes the Church of Corinth. Are you saying that everyone in that local body (the Church at Corinth) was saved. If so, then please tell me why Paul says:
And to whom was Paul speaking specifically in Chapter 13:
This is first to them that are sinning, and also to all others.
They all say the same thing TO THE PEOPLE OF THE CHURCH. Apparently God knows something your missing James :) .
What's the point of Jesus dying for everyone?
Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Isaiah40:28, May 1, 2007.
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Why does God Chasten us?
(this is the last post for a few hours) -
I have answered all your posts, James but you keep neglecting either all of mine or most of it.
Now, kindly address post #261
Why does Paul ask ALL of those in the Church at Corinth to examine themselves to see if they are in the Faith?
What would be the point if the church is made up of ONLY believers (granted it would be the most ideal). The spiritual body of Christ is made up of ONLY believers, but the earthly ministry of that body in localized form has the potential of not being only believers because we as men do not know if every person truly IS born-again but take their word for it.
Yet we find also that many false teacher and prophets have crept in awares. Into what? The Church body or local assembly. -
Yes but what you wrote is incorrect though typical.
As far as SCRIPTURE goes, Christ WAS addressing all the Churches (houses) of the day. A Church is a group of people...a local assembly. Yep, that is right. -
JD
I came across a particular quote from Martin Luther, and I just had to share it you:
Martin Luther (1483-1546): "Christ is not cruel exactor, but a forgiver of the sins of the whole world....He hath given Himself for our sins, and with one oblation hath put away the sins of the whole world....Christ hath taken away the sins, not of certain men only, but also of thee, yea, of the whole world...Not only my sins and thine, but also the sins of the whole world...take hold upon Christ."
http://home.earthlink.net/~ronrhodes/Atonement.html
I thought that you might enjoy this quote, to add to the variety of Calvin quotes. -
Allan,
That is hardly the case for you have only spent most of your time only on one verse as a sidetrack not to address the others.
Remember these?
Paul says he is addressing the saints as the readers of the letter. If indeed there were non-believers in that church “house” that is another matter. But the letter was addressed to the saints at Corinth.
Your statement is kinda strange. Either you have never studied the book, or your grasping. I would be more then glad to go into full detail on this book and the way in which you view it, if you would like to open a thread. For now, just read a few chapters 1,3,5…and then jump back to 13 and read the whole chapter. Then maybe you’ll get the idea. -
I asked "Why does God Chasten us?"
You said..."Yes, both individuals and the Church."
This is over my head...so help me.
Why does God chasten us?...going by this verse. -
{{quote above my james}} -
something else to ask yourself Allan....
Will non-believers become priest in the Kingdom? -
Sorry..I know I said I wanted to move back to the subject....but these new ideas keep hitting me. :)
so anyway. also...being this must be a big point for you. please outline the letter to the Laodiceans.
I think is you do this, you will find your error. -
Psalm 115:3 But our God is in the heavens: he hath done whatsoever he hath pleased.
Revelation 4:11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.
Proverbs 16:4 The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.
HankD -
The so labeled quote above is said to be from Martin Luther. We see non-Calvinist pulling this shady tactic all the time. They try to make other Calvinist think that even great Calvinists of the past do not believe as they do today. This would be fine if it were true. But what we see is nothing short of misleading statements and at times lies. What they seem to forget, is that most Calvinist are well read and have study the subject on their own and find their claims full of hot air.
So what is the point? Are non-Calvinist willing to do anything to win their debate, even to the point that you mislead others, and miss-quote others, and think nothing about it? Does the doctrine of "free-will of man" need such help in that you must dip into deceitful tactics such as this?
We have seen many times on this board a quote from John Calvin on John 3:16, by not just one or two non-Calvinist but a good handful and is posted in such a manner as to show readers that even John Calvin did not believe in limited atonement. Yet the truth is, that this well know statement is just 1 line From John Calvin with many parts left out, again with ideas here are to mislead. This is easy to find, if one only read John Calvin and not a web site that hates him.
We see this again in the Luther statement above. I cannot find this statement at all by Luther in the books I have looked through. I did find it on many haters of Calvinist web sites, but this means little when it is not found in the word it is said to come from. Most all of these sites that are setup to bash Calvinist, never say from where this statement came from. However, three sites said it came from Luther’s Commentary on St. Paul’s Epistle to the Galatians. This I know is not true for I have read the book. I have a copy in my library. Just to make sure I didn’t over look it, I did a search on a computer software program, and guess what. You got it…its not there.
So...where does this statement come from? Or is this yet another underhanded attempt to mislead?
Please know what you are posting before you take the time to post it. I get the idea from many, that their main goal and mission is to bash the Calvinist at all cost. They setup sites just for this reason, and think nothing of the fact they are misleading and not truthful. I do not understand why any one must run from the truth and feel as if they must take on an despicable ploy of fabrication and odium motives all in the name of their doctrine. Is the truth not good to them? One must wonder.
This coming from a side that suggest that God is only love and truth, but fail to take on such natures of their own.
May God help them. -
Dear Jauthur001,
I am not a Calvinist. I don't hate you. In fact, I don't hate any Calvinists.
Just thought you would like to know that.
HankD -
Chapter 1 verse 1
I think we will stop there for now. That is only two chapters in Gal. and it is quite evident that Luther holds Christ "died for the sins of the world". And by his own context and usage of the word, yes, it means mankind. ;)
This was obtained from "studylight.org" under commentaries, Martin Luther.
and
http://www.iclnet.org/pub/resources/text/wittenberg/luther/gal/web/gal-inx.html
It would be better stated that most Calvinists do not actaully READ the actual works of most Calvinists but read other peoples works of those particular men. Thereby being persuaded by opinion rather than fact on some instances- most specifically Unlimited Atonement and it commonly held belief among many notable Reformers.
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He loves us is why He chastens us.
But lest we forget, God so loved the world too. :laugh:
Though He doesn't chasten them, He extends His love toward them via His Son. -
But those passages are refering to the appropriation of the atonement, or the application of the atonement upon those who believe.
I have read it. How many believers do you that are having an open affair with their fathers wife?? How many believers do you know who are questioning the validity of the Pauls apostleship and even his salvation? Do you believe there is such a thing as a carnal Christian? (as in a person who lives their life in a life-style of sin WITHOUT conviction of that/those sins and therefore unrepentant) I don't. And I emphasize life-style and not an act or two of sinfulness. Scripture distinquishes between these. I'm not saying all or most of the Church of Corinth was lost but they did have some in their body of fellowship. Yes the letter was written to the believers in the Church at Corinith but it also deals with those who would be under it's reading that were not saved but in that fellowship body. -
Allan,
it is clear you still do not understand the meaning of "quote".
In our case it means this....
quote v
1. vti to repeat or copy the exact words spoken or written by somebody
Also called quotation
interj
used to show that the following words are a quotation (often used with “unquote”)
Encarta® World English Dictionary © 1999 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved. Developed for Microsoft by Bloomsbury Publishing Plc.
is the 1st quote in this quote? No...again..misleading
Now your closing statement...
Please notice the 1st quote..said to be from Luther.
1)...this>>>> Christ is not cruel exactor, but a forgiver of the sins of the whole world.
was never said by Luther.
again from the 1st quote..
2) ...this>>>>>Christ hath taken away the sins, not of certain men only, but also of thee, yea, of the whole world.
was never said by Luther.
More misleading?
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Its getting near the end of pages, so lets lay it all out. :)
ok..Rev says "who I love, I chasten".
You said above God does not chasten the world.
This would go along with Romans 1....where Paul tells us God "gave them up"
it would also go along with Isa 43: 3 where God said... I gave Egypt for thy ransom, Ethiopia and Seba for thee.
and it would also go along with Isa 53..where God the Father say toward the Son...I divide him (The Son) [a portion] with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong;because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many,
So I agree with you, that God does not chasten all, for He gives up some for the love of others, just as the Bible says.
and..Matthew 20:28 "Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many." would seem to agree with this notion....right?
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As to the 7 Churches in REV....they were the elect of God, or the non-believer will be kings and priests in the kingdom.
In chapter 3..please notice
When we read books that addrees church problems, it is addressed mainly to those in leadership of the church, in order for them to do something about it.
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You see...God does love His people.
Jhn 10:15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.
Now I know you do not think this applies to all Saints.
Like this verse..
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