LOVE TO.
Uh... where did you get THAT notion. I didn't say anything of the like. Are you trying to help yourself by making up things again? :)
Here is what I said:
This does not say I have proof of Exams. quote, but would like to see it myself. I have heard that quote before - I do have Luthers Commentary on Galations which states: - And I gave alot of his Commentary to show context and that his version of world is not your made up version here.
Notice how you neatly bend and sway from Luthers direct quotes, like well trained acrobat. I see you didn't deal with ONE of them.
Still dancing.
and still...
And heres the finale!
No they don't. The vast majority of 4 pointers hold to the biblical defintion of world when in application to men - (lit. Wicked and sinful man)
Your re-vised definition speaks SPECIFICALLY to the fact you don't believe Christ died for the sins of the World.
Luther denies your view. Look again at his OWN WORDS from his OWN Commentary.
Now who is misleading :laugh: You would be an expert at dodge ball.
I don't know. I personally haven't seen it and would like to know where it might be found. But Luther did say:
The world bears the Gospel a grudge because the Gospel condemns the religious wisdom of the world. Jealous for its own religious views, the world in turn charges the Gospel with being a subversive and licentious doctrine, offensive to God and man, a doctrine to be persecuted as the worst plague on earth
As a result we have this paradoxical situation: The Gospel supplies the world with the salvation of Jesus Christ, peace of conscience, and every blessing. Just for that the world abhors the Gospel
Notice world here is not speaking of the elect. :eek:
and (the first paragraph is to show what "world" he is speaking of)
and then
The elect casting away salvation, NO WAY!! And if not the elect then to whom did God offer salvation that they COULD cast it away, if it were possible?
AND
He has already established how he is using the term world repeatedly in the first two chapters of Galations via his commentary. He Not ONCE makes a distinction of elect world and sinful wicked world. It maintain it biblical definiton of - wicked sinful mankind in his renderings here.
AND HERE
If you can't say Amen, you need to say "ouch"!
I think we can see who is trying to mislead here.
What's the point of Jesus dying for everyone?
Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Isaiah40:28, May 1, 2007.
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And yet if you would take the time to READ my post, you would see this is the point.
If you cannot produce a proof that the 1st luther quote made by someone else is real, then the rest of your post is worthless, for this was the point. right?
and your post have not shown that that quote is real. For some reason I do not understand, this never matters to you. The truth is the full truth, not part. This would be like me saying..
Allan said...and I quote. "I believe in limited atonement"
If I said this and said it was a quote from you you would get mad. Yet you see no reason you can't do this to others. I could even say...well you said most of it...I only left out a word or two. When what you said was.."I DO NOT believe in limited atonement". Two words makes a big deal....don't they?
now on the other hand, if you want to take up a thread about luthers book, start one and I would be more then glad to join. Just stop the misquotes and i'll be cool.
I understand it was someone else that made the 1st so called luther quote...but you have defend it with NOTHING and you have made such statements before.
Just try to be clean and upfront. no need to mislead -
what gives? -
Jarthur001 said:And yet if you would take the time to READ my post, you would see this is the point.
If you cannot produce a proof that the 1st luther quote made by someone else is real, then the rest of your post is worthless, for this was the point. right?
and your post have not shown that that quote is real. For some reason I do not understand, this never matters to you. The truth is the full truth, not part. This would be like me saying..
Allan said...and I quote. "I believe in limited atonement"
If I said this and said it was a quote from you you would get mad. Yet you see no reason you can't do this to others. I could even say...well you said most of it...I only left out a word or two. When what you said was.."I DO NOT believe in limited atonement". Two words makes a big deal....don't they?
now on the other hand, if you want to take up a thread about luthers book, start one and I would be more then glad to join. Just stop the misquotes and i'll be cool.
I understand it was someone else that made the 1st so called luther quote...but you have defend it with NOTHING and you have made such statements before.
Just try to be clean and upfront. no need to misleadClick to expand...
So, no it does not make "the rest of your post is worthless" because it establishes that Luther DID IN FACT hold to such a view. But I see we are dodging again.
The quote the other person gave might not be real but the ones I gave are, and since you have Luthers Commentaries you should have them readily available for you to view.
This is not about one or two words James, it is that fact that many Calvinists try to claim ALL Reformers held their view of limited atonement and in fact many did not! I have quoted more than a word or two or a sentence or two I have give paragraphs for context to the extent of about 8000 words.
I defended it with Luthers own words, so if you call that nothing then that is you issue with truth not mine.
And in relation to me "making such statements before". If memory serves (and it does) the ONE time you showed that, you only made it to two quotes out of 15 plus and advised me of my error that they (the two) were not direct quotes. I adjusted the error and gave the actual quote and where the statement of concerning unlimited Atonement could be found in the reformers OWN writings. One of them WAS an actual quote you just didn't look in the right place of the authors works. But we spoke of this before on ANOTHER thread but you still could not speak against the direct quotes, just like here regarding Luthers Commentary and Calvins as well.
I just want to keep the record from being slanted, when in fact IT IS. -
Jarthur001 said:indeed....
Then you start in...
what gives?Click to expand...
I can understand about them not saying a specific thing but even if they are paraphrased and the exact quote is given to show this, the paraphrase still holds (or should at least) the main rendering of the passage in question. And therefore the paraphrase is just as valid as the original but only if the original can be confirmed. -
Allan said:Excuse me? The issue, in part, was the fact that Luther did indeed hold to Christ dieing for the world and not just the elect. Though a person might have quoted incorrectly or inaccurately does not dismiss Luthers own articualted words speaking to that same truth which was spoken (or written) incorrectly.
So, no it does not make "the rest of your post is worthless" because it establishes that Luther DID IN FACT hold to such a view. But I see we are dodging again.
The quote the other person gave might not be real but the ones I gave are, and since you have Luthers Commentaries you should have them readily available for you to view.
This is not about one or two words James, it is that fact that many Calvinists try to claim ALL Reformers held their view of limited atonement and in fact many did not! I have quoted more than a word or two or a sentence or two I have give paragraphs for context to the extent of about 8000 words.
I defended it with Luthers own words, so if you call that nothing then that is you issue with truth not mine.
And in relation to me "making such statements before". If memory serves (and it does) the ONE time you showed that, you only made it to two quotes out of 15 plus and advised me of my error that they (the two) were not direct quotes. I adjusted the error and gave the actual quote and where the statement of concerning unlimited Atonement could be found in the reformers OWN writings. One of them WAS an actual quote you just didn't look in the right place of the authors works. But we spoke of this before on ANOTHER thread but you still could not speak against the direct quotes, just like here regarding Luthers Commentary and Calvins as well.
I just want to keep the record from being slanted, when in fact IT IS.Click to expand...
I have said to you many times, I have no problem talking about calvin, luther or whoever you want. I do have a whole lot of problem with misleading others. You however...
well....if you want me to address luther...fine I'll do that. START a thread.
I have not dodged your post, for there was no need to address them, for My point was the misleading part. -
Jarthur001 said:So I agree with you, that God does not chasten all, for He gives up some for the love of others, just as the Bible says.Click to expand...
Though God loves the world, He has a special love for those whom He has chosen.
and..Matthew 20:28 "Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many." would seem to agree with this notion....right?Click to expand...
********
As to the 7 Churches in REV....they were the elect of God, or the non-believer will be kings and priests in the kingdom.Click to expand...
Allan, the Bible is wrote to Gods people. This is why the non-believer cannot understand it, without Gods help.Click to expand...
"If my people, which are called by my name"....is a call for the choosen to get right with God.Click to expand...
This does not mean non-believers are not within the church building, for they are. But the letters are addressed to Gods people. Now please note, that Gods people also include the Jews. And no, the jews are not all believers. The Jews were chosen for other reasons, and some are not chosen toward salvation.Click to expand...
In chapter 3..please notice
after they are called down for their lack of works, they are then counseled. Does verse 8 sound like the romans road to salvation? Can you buy salvation? No..you know this. But you can layup white raiment and gold and crowns, with the work you do for the kingdom after salvation.Click to expand...
When we read books that addrees church problems, it is addressed mainly to those in leadership of the church, in order for them to do something about it.Click to expand...
*********
Now I know you do not think this applies to all Saints.Click to expand...
You see this is the same message through the whole Bible.
One would have to overlook most of the Bible, in order not to believe in limited atonement.Click to expand...
Like this verse..[/QUOTE]
They deal with Limited Redeption -
Originally posted by Jarthur001:
Just try to be clean and upfront. no need to misleadClick to expand... -
Allan
---The Luther quotes---
It was not taken from an "anti-Calvinist" site, as JArthur assumes. It was taken from a 4-Point Calvinist, Ron Rhodes, and the link was provided for all to see and investigate, though some have chosen not to avail themselves to the link in which the quote was taken. Rhodes defends his position on account from support from the likes of Calvin and Luther.
Luther: "The Gospel supplies the world with the salvation of Jesus Christ, peace of conscience, and every blessing. Just for that the world abhors the Gospel." (http://blueletterbible.org/Comm/martin_luther/Gal/Gal001.html)
Luther: "Why does the world abhor the glad tidings of the Gospel and the blessings that go with it? Because the world is the devil's. Under his direction the world persecutes the Gospel and would if it could nail again Christ, the Son of God, to the Cross although He gave Himself into death for the sins of the world." (http://blueletterbible.org/Comm/martin_luther/Gal/Gal001.html)
Luther: "Isaiah declares of Christ: "The Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all." We have no right to minimize the force of this declaration. God does not amuse Himself with words. What a relief for a Christian to know that Christ is covered all over with my sins, your sins, and the sins of the whole world." (http://blueletterbible.org/Comm/martin_luther/Gal/Gal003.html)
Luther: "All the prophets of old said that Christ should be the greatest transgressor, murderer, adulterer, thief, blasphemer that ever was or ever could be on earth. When He took the sins of the whole world upon Himself, Christ was no longer an innocent person. He was a sinner burdened with the sins of a Paul who was a blasphemer; burdened with the sins of a Peter who denied Christ; burdened with the sins of a David who committed adultery and murder, and gave the heathen occasion to laugh at the Lord. In short, Christ was charged with the sins of all men, that He should pay for them with His own blood." (http://blueletterbible.org/Comm/martin_luther/Gal/Gal003.html)
Now some may suggest, "Well when Luther spoke about the world, he meant the whole world of the elect."
If so, then consider this statement: "Here someone may be tempted to call the Christians crazy. Deliberately to court danger by preaching and confessing the truth, and thus to bring upon ourselves the hatred and enmity of the whole world, is this not madness? But Paul does not mind the enmity of the world." (http://blueletterbible.org/Comm/martin_luther/Gal/Gal005.html) Additionally he says: "And this is our glory today with the Pope and the whole world persecuting us and trying to kill us." (http://blueletterbible.org/Comm/martin_luther/Gal/Gal006.html)
Calvin sounds similar to Luther in this respect, and Calvin's quotes are found in abundance on my website. This is not just one or two off-handed references. I'm talking about a library of quotes from Calvin. Ironically, in pet verses where the 5-Pointer raises issues, not only does Calvin not reflect their 5-Point view, but also even refutes them, as Matthew 1:21 particularly comes to mind.
http://www.examiningcalvinism.com/files/Gospels/Matthew1_21.html -
examiningcalvinism said:---The Luther quotes---
It was not taken from an "anti-Calvinist" site, as JArthur assumes. It was taken from a 4-Point Calvinist, Ron Rhodes, and the link was provided for all to see and investigate, though some have chosen not to avail themselves to the link in which the quote was taken. Rhodes defends his position on account from support from the likes of Calvin and Luther.
Luther: "The Gospel supplies the world with the salvation of Jesus Christ, peace of conscience, and every blessing. Just for that the world abhors the Gospel." (http://blueletterbible.org/Comm/martin_luther/Gal/Gal001.html)
Luther: "Why does the world abhor the glad tidings of the Gospel and the blessings that go with it? Because the world is the devil's. Under his direction the world persecutes the Gospel and would if it could nail again Christ, the Son of God, to the Cross although He gave Himself into death for the sins of the world." (http://blueletterbible.org/Comm/martin_luther/Gal/Gal001.html)
Luther: "Isaiah declares of Christ: "The Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all." We have no right to minimize the force of this declaration. God does not amuse Himself with words. What a relief for a Christian to know that Christ is covered all over with my sins, your sins, and the sins of the whole world." (http://blueletterbible.org/Comm/martin_luther/Gal/Gal003.html)
Luther: "All the prophets of old said that Christ should be the greatest transgressor, murderer, adulterer, thief, blasphemer that ever was or ever could be on earth. When He took the sins of the whole world upon Himself, Christ was no longer an innocent person. He was a sinner burdened with the sins of a Paul who was a blasphemer; burdened with the sins of a Peter who denied Christ; burdened with the sins of a David who committed adultery and murder, and gave the heathen occasion to laugh at the Lord. In short, Christ was charged with the sins of all men, that He should pay for them with His own blood." (http://blueletterbible.org/Comm/martin_luther/Gal/Gal003.html)
Now some may suggest, "Well when Luther spoke about the world, he meant the whole world of the elect."
If so, then consider this statement: "Here someone may be tempted to call the Christians crazy. Deliberately to court danger by preaching and confessing the truth, and thus to bring upon ourselves the hatred and enmity of the whole world, is this not madness? But Paul does not mind the enmity of the world." (http://blueletterbible.org/Comm/martin_luther/Gal/Gal005.html) Additionally he says: "And this is our glory today with the Pope and the whole world persecuting us and trying to kill us." (http://blueletterbible.org/Comm/martin_luther/Gal/Gal006.html)
Calvin sounds similar to Luther in this respect, and Calvin's quotes are found in abundance on my website. This is not just one or two off-handed references. I'm talking about a library of quotes from Calvin. Ironically, in pet verses where the 5-Pointer raises issues, not only does Calvin not reflect their 5-Point view, but also even refutes them, as Matthew 1:21 particularly comes to mind.
http://www.examiningcalvinism.com/files/Gospels/Matthew1_21.htmlClick to expand...
For me, I hardly ever quote a writer, till I have read a few things. I do this for another reason. For me, I do not want to find out later they were some crack pot...and I be quoting them.
I can quote Calvin, for I have read a few books by him. I'm in no way a Calvin expert, nor have I even read most of his books. But what I have read, is not the same Calvin you try to paint him to be. If you do not like the doctirne, fine. No one is holding a gun to your head. But if you find you must quote others, please know what your talking about. -
webdog said:"Pot...there's a call for you from kettle on line one"Click to expand...
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Jarthur001 said:Thats, "Mr Pot" to you think you very much. :)Click to expand...
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