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When did regeneration occur?

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by AdamL, Jan 7, 2018.

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  1. tyndale1946

    tyndale1946 Well-Known Member
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    Can I ask a question about regeneration?... You brethren have brought up a lot of people from the scriptures, but you forgot the most important ones... The two criminals crucified with Jesus... The one on the right and the one on the left... Why was one saved and the other one not?... What did one thief do and the other one didn't?... When did any of those two hear the gospel?... I believe that the illustration teaches election but that is another topic... We can all speculate but that is not scripture... Why did the Lord address him and not the other one?... He didn't change himself... Who changed him and why was he changed?... OK!... I'm finished!... Brother Glen:)

    Btw... I have a Deaf son and he has never heard the gospel but he loves the Lord, I didn't teach him and he has never heard the gospel preached!
     
  2. Jerome

    Jerome Well-Known Member
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    Bro. Wm. Crouse explains:

    books.google.com/books?id=mm0_DwAAQBAJ&pg=PA98

    "Ephesians 2:2-5....Paul says the medium through which this work is accomplished is Christ. Nowhere in his argument here does the Apostle mention the gospel. If God uses the gospel in this work, Paul either did not know it, or knowing it, he failed to make mention of it. Paul cannot be charged with criminal neglect; and since regeneration is one of the fundamentals in the religion of Christ, and in the statement of that doctrine he makes no mention of the use of the gospel, we argue that sinners are NOT regenerated through the instrumentality of the written or spoken Word. Paul learned this doctrine from Christ."
     
    #42 Jerome, Jan 7, 2018
    Last edited: Jan 7, 2018
  3. AdamL

    AdamL New Member

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    So based on this explanation a person does not need to hear the Gospel or read the word of God. God just regenerates them...
     
  4. thatbrian

    thatbrian Well-Known Member
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    It sounds as though your view is that regeneration occurs apart from and before one "hears" the gospel. Is that correct?
     
  5. Saved-By-Grace

    Saved-By-Grace Well-Known Member

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    Why bother asking a Calvinist/Reformed person on this, as they DO NOT KNOW!
     
    • Funny Funny x 1
  6. Reformed

    Reformed Well-Known Member
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    Adam, why do you want to judge a regenerate man from an unregenerate one? What is your motive?
     
  7. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
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    Talk about your heresy
     
  8. AdamL

    AdamL New Member

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    I believe the Bible tells us to do that. Believers are to be separated from unbelievers. We are also to try the spirits to be able to tell the difference between the Spirit of God and the spirit of this world. (II Cor 6:14-17 and I John 4:1-5)

    It is of utmost importance that we have and use spiritual discernment in our affairs with believers and unbelievers. We should know who we are spending our time with and if we should be witnessing to that person as an unsaved person or exhorting, encouraging, or admonishing a brother or sister in the Lord. Should we be sitting in our local congregation with blinders on having no idea if those around us are truly our brothers and sisters or not? Should we go through life not watching for opportunities to witness to unbelievers when we are among them?

    My motivation then would be to do my part in reaching the lost and challenging and encouraging the brethren.

    I believe you are leaving out some critical information in your example. The malefactors knew more than you are letting on. In Luke 23:39 we can see that they knew of Jesus' claim to be the Christ and that the Christ had power that they did not have. Why one of them was convicted of the Holy Spirit to realize his condition and acknowledge Jesus as Lord and ask to be remembered in the Kingdom of God I cannot tell you. I can see from the Scriptures that in Luke 23:40-42 there is evidence of it though. Why is it always asked what one man did and the other did not or what one man possessed and the other did not? Why do some people hear the Gospel many times before they are "effectually called" why would the call ever be ineffectual if they are the elect? Why would God not regenerate His elect right after the very first time they sinned if He is going to regenerate them anyway? Why wait?

    Thank you for sharing about your son. Interestingly enough we had a deaf missionary in our service yesterday evening. Through his interpreter he made an interesting statement. Deaf people can't hear with their ears but they can with their eyes. Regardless of the fact that your son cannot physically hear what is being preached or said it is still communicated to him in a way that he is able to acknowledge and understand. You may not have taught him but someone that is fluent in sign language did. He "heard" the Gospel of his salvation with his eyes, and acknowledgement, acceptance, and belief with his brain and heart happened the same as a person hearing with their ears.
     
    #48 AdamL, Jan 8, 2018
    Last edited: Jan 8, 2018
  9. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    Exactly. But 'regeneration' is actually the wrong Biblical term for the heavenly birth (which is another topic), which is what occurs apart from the gospel.
     
  10. thatbrian

    thatbrian Well-Known Member
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    That would run up against some texts that come to mind, the Parable of the Sower, for starters. How does birth take place without a seed?
     
  11. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    In the parable, what is the seed? Who is the sower?
     
  12. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    There's nothing new here. From R.C. Sproul:

    Regeneration Is Immediate
     
  13. thatbrian

    thatbrian Well-Known Member
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    The seed is the gospel or the "word of the Kingdom".

    "A Farmer" sows the seed.
     
  14. thatbrian

    thatbrian Well-Known Member
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    I actually posted the order of salvation from Sproul in post #2. He has the gospel call preceding regeneration, as I do.
     
  15. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    No. Read closer:

    19 When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the evil one, and snatcheth away that which hath been sown in his heart. This is he that was sown by the way side.
    20 And he that was sown upon the rocky places, this is he that heareth the word, and straightway with joy receiveth it;
    21 yet hath he not root in himself, but endureth for a while; and when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, straightway he stumbleth.
    22 And he that was sown among the thorns, this is he that heareth the word; and the care of the world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful.
    23 And he that was sown upon the good ground, this is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; who verily beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some a hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty. Mt 13

    Move on down to vv 37-38

    37 And he answered and said, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;
    38 and the field is the world; and the good seed, these are the sons of the kingdom; and the tares are the sons of the evil one;
     
  16. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    Did you read the piece? It's short. I assumed Ligonier Ministries is the teaching of Sproul.
     
  17. SheepWhisperer

    SheepWhisperer Active Member

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    As to Cornelius, lots of people do "good works" but they are still lost. And the Ethiopian Eunuch was searching for truth because he was being "drawn" by the Holy Ghost. A person is not "regenerated" until he becomes a "new creature". Regeneration happens the moment one believes on the Lord Jesus and is instantly indwelled with the Holy Ghost.
     
  18. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    This is precisely what I think is the correct Biblical meaning of 'regeneration' (used only twice in the NT). One that is a new creature of the new covenant is regenerate. BUT, only the children of the heavenly Zion [born from above] can be brought into 'the regeneration', i.e., the 'building again' of the house of David, the restoration of all things.
     
  19. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    ....seems I remember there were some of his students that had become frustrated at his doublespeak[?] on some matters.
     
  20. AdamL

    AdamL New Member

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    I would agree with your statement. I do not believe you can receive new life and be made a new creature without belief in the Lord Jesus Christ.

    I am bewildered by the statements that a person could be born from above or regenerated without the Gospel. And also that regeneration is not salvation.
     
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