Which?

ww.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/son


Definition of son
(Entry 1 of 2)

1a: a human male offspring especially of human beings
b: a male adopted child
c: a human male descendant
2capitalized : the second person of the Trinity
3: a person closely associated with or deriving from a formative agent (such as a nation, school, or race)


I know, no Greek.

Is there anything in the original Greek relative to 2 above? Now show me where in scripture or the Greek (for as far as I know it may be there) where the word, Person, should be applied to God. Should even the word person be used in 2 Cor 2:10 and Heb 1:3

The son of him, τὸν μονογενῆ John 3:16 Unique son, how? Offspring, born or come of woman Gal 4:4, or adopted as we are/will be?

Romans 8:15,23 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
Luke 20:36 Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.

 

Are you saying that God is impersonal? By "person" it does not mean "human being", as we are, but, as defined;

“Definition of Personality. Personality exists where there is intelligence, mind, will, reason, individuality, self-consciousness, and self-determination. There must be not mere consciousness—for the beast has that—but self-consciousness. Nor is personality determination—for the beast has this, too, even though this determination be the result of influences from without—but self-determination, the power by which man from an act of his own free will determines his acts from within.

Neither corporeity nor substance, as we understand these words, are necessarily, if at all, involved in personality. There may be true personality without either or both of these.

(William Evans, The Great Doctrines of the Bible, p.22)

In 2 Corinthians 4:6, Paul speaks of "the Glory of God in the Face of Jesus Christ" (KJV)

"Face" is the Greek "πρόσωπον", which also is used for "person", as distinguished from "a thing", or "animal".

The translation, "the Glory of God in the Person of Jesus Christ", is also allowed

μονογενῆ literally means, "one of a kind", or "unique", with not reference to "birth" or "begetting". The correct Greek word of this meaning, is, “μονογέννητος”, which does mean, "only-begotten".

Jesus Christ IS YHWH, and 100% COEQUAL to God the Father and God the Holy Spirit.

 

The Word became the Son upon the incarnation at his human birth, by definition.

 

I disagree, though not without deferring, as always, to those who are far more alert mentally and current with languages.

μονογενῆ Certainly is unique, one of a kind, as you pointed out, but it does have to do with birthing.
The word carries the “genos” meaning offspring of the family, the descendants of a single parental unit, like Adam is to Noah to all the world.

μονογέννητος indicates that there are no siblings.

I suppose what I am attempting to present is that both words represent a birthing of a child.

It truly is but a small correction, but sometimes in zeal overstatement occurs in us all.

 

Are you saying was jesus eternally Begoyyen of/by the father?

was jesus even the Son before he birth, as was he not eternally though the Word of the father?

 

No, I am posting the typical thinking of that view.

I do not see the Son as eternally begotten, but the Word. That which actually created all things the Elohim determined needed to be done. The Elohim is the trinity.

When Christ humbled Himself, and took on the form of man, then He called Himself the Son and the Son of Man.

Just as the trinity was involved at the creation especially that of the first Adam (let Us make…) so (according to Luke) the trinity was involved in the making of the second Adam.

Throughout the NT the Father/Son are both tied together as working in unity.

 

So not eternal Sonship, but was eternally also God?

 

Here chew on this awhile... Brother Glen:)

I'm not going to quote my opinion but scripture... Then SBG, in plain language, tell us all what it means because here it is!

1 Corinthians 15:24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

15:25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.

15:26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

15:27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.

15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

For those who believe in the 1,000 year reign of Christ, if he must reign, then his reign is over, when he delivers the resurrected saved to his Father!... It couldn't be put any plainer!... Mission Accomplished!

 

here is my response from the Bible, something for you to chew on! :Whistling

1 Corinthians 15:24-28

“Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power. For He must reign until He has put all his enemies under his feet. The last enemy to be destroyed is death. For He has put all things in subjection under his feet. But when it says, all things are put in subjection, it is plain that he is excepted who put all things in subjection under Him. When all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself will also be subjected to Him who put all things in subjection under Him, that God may be all in all”

This passage has been misused by some, who teach that in the End Times, after the Second Coming of Jesus Christ, and the end of this present world, that Jesus Christ would Himself remain “subject” to God the Father. Further, it is assumed, that because of this, that God the Father is “superior” to Jesus Christ in the Godhead. Both are 100% WRONG!

To understand what the Bible Teaches on any subject, we must look at what the Bible says overall, rather than taking a single verse or passage, and trying to build a “doctrine” on it.

It is very clear from the passage in 1 Corinthians, that Paul is speaking of the Mediatorial Kingdom of Jesus Christ, of which Jesus Himself says, “no one will say, ‘Look here!’ or ‘There!’ For you see, the Kingdom of God is among you.” (Luke 17:21). Note the use of “ἐστιν” (is), which is the present, continuous tense. Jesus Christ Himself being The King of His Kingdom, while He was on earth. It is this Kingdom, which Paul refers to in this passage, and not the Eternal Kingdom, which is clearly shown in Scripture.

“And Your house and your kingdom shall be made sure forever before Me. Your Throne shall be established forever” – 2 Samuel 7:16

“And to Him was given Dominion and Glory and a Kingdom, that all peoples, nations, and languages should serve Him; His Dominion is an everlasting Dominion, which shall not pass away, and His Kingdom one that shall not be destroyed” – Daniel 7:14

“And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bear a son, and you shall call His Name Jesus. He will be Great and will be called the Son of the Most High. And the Lord God will give to Him the throne of His father David, and He will Reign over the house of Jacob forever, and of His Kingdom there will be no end.” – Luke 1:31-33

These passages, as others show, that the Reign of Jesus Christ, in His Kingdom, will be an eternal one, without any end.

There are also Scriptures that very clearly Teach, the coequal Reign of Jesus Christ with God the Father.

In the Book of Revelation, we read of the Eternal Reign of God the Father, and Jesus Christ:

“Then the seventh angel blew his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, saying, “The kingdom of the world has become the Kingdom of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall Reign forever and ever.” (11:15)

The distinction of Persons can be seen from “τοῦ κυρίου ἡμῶν καὶ τοῦ χριστοῦ αὐτοῦ” (our Lord and of His Christ). However, we then go on to read, “βασιλεύσει εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας τῶν αἰώνων”, “He shall Reign for ever and ever”. Here we don’t have “ἐβασίλευσαν”, as in the plural, “They shall Reign”; but rather, the singular is used, “βασιλεύσει”, “He shall Reign”. Not that this means that God the Father and Jesus Christ are one and the same Person, as it already shows that they are not. The use of the singular is very important, as it shows the absolute singleness and unity of the Joint-Reign of both the Father and Jesus Christ, as coequal.

In chapter 20, we have very similar language used:

“Blessed and holy is the one who shares in the first resurrection! Over such the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and they will reign with Him for a thousand years” (verse 6)

Here also we see the distinction of the Persons, “τοῦ θεοῦ καὶ τοῦ χριστοῦ” (of God and of Christ). This verse tells us about the reign of all saved believers in Jesus Christ, who will reign with Him. Here we have the plural “βασιλεύσουσιν” (they shall reign), for the believers. Then we have the singular “αὐτοῦ” (Him), but we have Two Persons, “God [the Father]” and Jesus Christ. Again, the use of the singular is the same as in 11:15.

This is clearer in chapter 22, verses 1 and 3:

“Then the angel showed me the river of the water of life, bright as crystal, flowing from the throne of God and of the Lamb. No longer will there be anything accursed, but the throne of God and of the Lamb will be in it, and His servants will worship Him”

“τοῦ θρόνου τοῦ θεοῦ καὶ τοῦ ἀρνίου”, which is “the Throne of God and the Lamb”, which is Jesus Christ. Two distinct Persons, yet one Throne, the singular “θρόνου”, and not the plural “θρόνων”. Clearly because of the COEQUAL Joint-Reign of BOTH the Father and Jesus Christ. In verse 3 again we have the singular “θρόνου”, for Two Persons. We then read that “His (αὐτοῦ, singular) will worship Him (αὐτῷ)”. It can only refer to the SERVING and WORSHIP of Jesus Christ, or, to God the Father and Jesus Christ, JOINTLY, which is what all of these passages clearly teach. In chapter 5, verses 13-14, we have ALL “the Blessing and the Honor and the Glory and the Might”, equally given to BOTH the Father and Jesus Christ. And they are BOTH WORSHIPPED together.

All these passages, and many others in the Bible, are very clear, that in the Eternal Godhead, The Father and The Son and The Holy Spirit, are 100% COEQUAL, COETERNAL, AND COESSENTIAL. As there is One God, in Three Persons, Who are equally YHWH.

There is no Scripture that Teaches, that in the Godhead, that any of the Persons, is “superior”, or “inferior” to the others. This is an impossibility.

While on earth, during His Incarnate state, Jesus Christ did, of His own free will, choose to become “for a while lower than the angels” (Hebrews 2:7, 9). And give up His equality with the Father, which He had from all eternity, as is clear in John 17:5, “And now, Father, Glorify Me in your own presence with the Glory that I had together with You before the world existed”. And, as we can see from Philippians 2:5-11, Jesus “gave up” His Godhead right of being “equal” with the Father, while on earth. Interesting that Paul writes, “ἴσα θεῷ (equal to God)”, which is the neuter plural, used adverbially, which refers to the “Power, Authority, Glory”, which Jesus “He stripped Himself of His glory” (Weymouth NT, ἑαυτὸν ἐκένωσεν, verse 7), while on earth, and “submitted” Himself to the Father. Which is why Jesus could say, “the Father is greater than I” (John 14:28); but, also, “that all may Honor the Son, exactly as they Honor the Father. Whoever does not Honor the Son does not Honor the Father who sent Him” (John 5:23, as in the Greek). Because Jesus Christ is the God-Man, 100% Almighty God, and 100% fully human, apart from any sin in His “human nature” (Luke 1:35; Romans 8:3; Hebrews 7:26). Jesus Christ could never cease to be Almighty God, even when in the womb of Mary, and lived on earth. This is what the Apostle Paul means, when he writes, “And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh” ( 1 Timothy 3:16)

 

This work is worthy of acceptance as educational, and (imo) well done.

For the record, I do consider the truthfulness of John in specifying a millennium reign and find OT prophetic statements to confirm that thinking.

 

The language in Revelation 20 if literally to be understood, shows that there will be a future Millennium Reign of Jesus Christ. During which time the devil is restricted in what he can do.

I am not too sure about Prophecy as a lot of it can be symbolic

 

Often the prophets overlap events of the first and second coming with their current events. As an early student of Scriptures the now long dead profs would picture prophecy as two mountains ranges back to back and the farthest one higher then the other. Still works for me.

 

SBG this was very well done but I believe there to be some considerations between 1 Cor 15 and Rev 20,21,22.

for even as in Adam all die, so also in the Christ all shall be made alive, and each in his proper order, a first-fruit Christ, afterwards those who are the Christ's, in his presence, 1 Cor 15:22.23

Now according to my understanding that corresponds with Rev 20 Christ comes in his presence, those who are Christ's are raised and the devil is sealed for 1000 years. Christ and those who are Christ's rule for a 1000 years as kings and priests.

1 Cor 15:26 the last enemy is done away -- death;
2 Cor 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.

and as it is laid up to men once to die <Gen 2:17) and after this -- judgment, Heb 9:27
Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished.
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

Now comes the new heavens and new earth

Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. and IMHO Eph 1:10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:

 

Thanks for your words. However I was responding to Jesus being eternally subordinate to the Father as is supposed to be in 2 Corinthians 15.28. What I have shown from Scripture is that the Reign of Jesus Christ is eternal and WITH the Father and not subordinate to Him. Because both Persons are equally Almighty God. And in the Godhead there is no subordination of any of the Persons, the Three being completely coequal

 

Reading through this thread, I am deeply concerned at the accusations of 'heresy' that are flying about.
This is most unhelpful and will only lead to ill-feeling. It is one thing to tell someone that he is wrong, but the words 'heresy' and 'heretic' conjure up images of racks, thumbscrews and burnings. Titus 3:10 instructs us to 'reject' a heretic after two admonitions, but this is for the moderators to implement, not the members.
'And a servant of the Lord must not quarrel but be gentle to all, able to teach, patient, in humility correcting those who are in opposition, if God perhaps will grant them repentance so that they may know the truth' (2 Timothy 2:24-25).

Before anybody tells me, I am aware that I have fallen from that standard more than once, but I do believe it would be helpful and engender a more friendly atmosphere if the Mods banned the use of the words 'heresy' and 'heretic.'

 

I long ago passed you I'm ashamed to say. :)

I don't think it would help.

What about the report function? Does it work well?

 

Simply making a blanket accusation of 'Heresy' is not very helpful or even necessary useful. What ever perceived error is, should be addressed specifically. Some are regarded as only of a secondary issue. But essentials being a matter of salvation can get a thread closed, or worst.

 

there is a BIG difference between "heresy" and "heretic". The former can mean simply "teachings that are in error"; and the latter, "someone who is not saved". You quote Titus 3:10, which uses the adjective αἱρετικός, which basically means, "false doctrine", and not "a heretic"!

 

Well it works for me!... But if I report something, I leave it up to the admin to handle it as they see fit... Most I find get lost on here and expect a response from a Zombie Thread?... Brother Glen:)