Who gets to decide?

I can't demonstrate how Christ's name is hallowed by it.

We're commanded to abstain from vain things, and you can do your own homework. A good primer on the subject is Bunyan's description of Vanity Fair in The Pilgrim's Progress.

If you'll recall, I alluded to one's reasons for a belly button ring as a main criterion in judging it, and in the other thread everyone called AFG's daughter a liar. They didn't believe she didn't want it to show it off as she was reported to have claimed.

 

Glad I could clarify.

I am somewhat bothered by the rather romantic vision many Christians have of the Amish and others, however. It reminds me of the romantic vision New Agers have of Native Americans.

The Amish are just people. There is nothing especially spiritual about them, and they can be very legalistic. Some of their beliefs about how to live are not biblical. There is nothing sinful or worldly about using electricity, telephones, computers, etc.

Pacifism is not just being peaceful - it is also a belief that one cannot even defend one's self or another against attack. You okay with that?

 

How is Christ's name hallowed by a lot of things? Lots of stuff doesn't "hallow."

Explain how a white t-shirt can. Or laptop case. Or a pair of stud earrings over hoop earrings.
Would an ankle length skirt made by children in a sweat shop do a better job of hallowing than an old, outgrown pair of jeans two sizes two small that was made by a Christian?

 

The Amish I know live without electricity so as to not detract from the family time by the use of TV, etc. Those I know are very informed about what is going on in our country.

If you did not have to build a home with a furnace, air conditioner, wiring, heater and air conditioning duct work. Then if you never had to pay for the bills think about how much you would save each year and could give to others. If you did not have internet, telephone think about what the total savings would be in dollars that you could give to missions, etc. Then if you lived in a community where they helped their people get a home very cheaply because the labor is free, think about how much that home would cost.

 

I am fine with them wanting to do this; what I am not fine with is portraying them as better or more spiritual because they do it.

This is not a sentence, so I'm not sure what you are saying.

This is funny, because I am a missionary. Would you like to help support me? I'm needing to increase my support this year. Also, I could not do my ministry without the internet. My website is a big part of my ministry. Also, I get wireless internet free, thanks to being able to log onto my landlords' internet service.

Does this make them better or more spiritual?

 

That's right.

By covering one's nakedness.

It's good stewardship to take proper care of the things that God has provided.

Got me there. How do any earrings hallow God's name?

Now you're just being irrational.

 

I agree and I do not think those I know would tell you they are. They like my air conditioned home. I have never seen a person be more spiritual with or without utilities but I have never seen a person be more spiritual with more of anything except discipline and love. Wasted time on entertainment does not take the place of biblical literacy. Asa whole the church is declining on its knowledge.

There is a good video at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dGCJ46vyR9o

Utilities cost a lot of money and when they are built into a home the costs of the installation, maintenance and utilities adds up to a lot of money.

Many others I know are wanting to increase their support too. I wish that I had more money to help more people. I know some who use the internet to reach non-Christians too. They also meet many of the people in person too to follow up on them.

 

How did this turn into a topic of wasting time on entertainment? Just because someone has a TV does not mean they watch useless things.

But this should not be a biblical issue, and the Amish make it one. It's legalism.

:thumbs:

 

It very well could be a biblical issue just like wasting food. It could be viewed as being good stewards of what they have. A lot of poor people are unable to afford air conditioning and many other comforts today. Most of those comforts that once were never a part of any home not too many years ago. Think of how many have borrowed a lot of money on their homes and many other things. They are slaves to the lender. If Christians lived simply then they would have more to give to others.

 

So would a tank top.

What if the laptop case had unnecessary embellishments?

When you keep them on instead of giving them up to help others make a sacred cow.

Actually, I found that to be a most interesting question. Many would look at someone in tight jeans and not understand why they might be wearing them. That COULD be the reason.
Kinda like when I was reported at church for being in a bar. (old church, not current one) Nobody asked why, they just preached at me, so I never told them. I was witnessing to a specific person, but was told it was somehow "holier" for me to be witnessing at places that were not quite as questionable.

Human nature wants to point the figure and place blame on others.
Christianity wants to show how guilt is absolved.

Far too many judge others based on what makes them (the judger) feel guilty or something they perceive as making their own selves holier by not doing. This is where legalism kicks in. Better to use the Bible as a measure than personal thoughts and emotions.

I have to sometimes wonder if a little torment would make us all stick together on focus on the core of Christianity rather than little peripheral issues that don't do much of anything to bring people closer to Christ. Like I said before, I cannot WAIT until I get so holy that these little things become major issues in my life! It's tough enough just to win the majors that I simply can't understanding majoring in the minors anymore. I used to do it, but I was wrong. So was the church I was in where that was focused on. Years later, I looked back and felt like I wasted the first few years of my Christianity doing that instead of growing, maturing, and doing the most important thing we're told to do...GO AND TELL OTHERS.

 

I used to stay with grandmother in central Florida in a house with no air conditioning for 2 to 3 months in the summer. I also lived in Atlanta in a duplex for 6 yrs. with no AC. So been there, done that.

The issue here is not that the Amish go without AC to be good stewards; they think using electricity is unbiblical.

And who is going to define "living simply?" As soon as someone starts to define it for others, they are violating the spirit of Rom. 14 and other passages.

 

Not nearly as well.

Yeah, and the Warren Commission explained how same bullet COULD hit Kennedy in the head and Connelly in the wrist and leg.

I don't condemn girls for their choices in their clothing styles. I condemn their fathers.

By faith and repentance, not by hallowing every worldly and vain practice.

Do you mean persecution? I agree. We'll see how many luxuries are afforded a persecuted church.

 

None of the Amish that I know personally have told me that. In fact they have cell phones and use electricity to supply power for their electrically powered tools for the buildings they work on.

If you do not care to live simply then do not give to anyone because that would lower your standard of living.

When people are broke and without money, living simply is no longer just a spiritual issue but a practical issue. They learn a lot about their greed factor too. They soon find out what their needs are really are. 1 Cor 11 address the issue of greed in the church and how it affected that particular church. It can be a legalistic issue but more importantly a heart issue. When people have items in their homes they purchased and have never used that is a greed issue.

 

There are 2 main sects of Amish - the ones who use electricity and the ones who don't. So you know the ones who do.

So I can't give to anyone unless I live "simply?" How do you define living simply?

Well, according to you, it's a greed issue. I think that's very judgmental. We could save a lot of money wearing clothes made out of burlap, and cutting our own hair, and eating beans and rice, and give that to the poor. But this doesn't make anyone more spiritual. So I could say to you that you are not living simply or being spiritual or that you are being greedy because you don't wear burlap clothes or you own more than 2 pairs of shoes, or whatever.

I am not saying it's wrong to "live simply;" I'm questioning 1) That anyone should define it for anyone else and 2) That living with less things makes one more spiritual or better.

 

Not exactly. They use electricity on the job on other people's home but not in their own home. They do have a phone in an outshed for more than one family but not in their home.

My point was that one can live much more simply than they care to or even know until they get to that point. That point ius always challenging me in my daily life ot be careful what I dio and how I spend my money.

A CEO making 400 times what the employee on the bottom is plain greed and lacking in leadership.

You are right in that I would be greedy if I expected to reach people that did not have enough to eat. I think James teaches that clearly. If I expect to reach American then I need to be like them to a certain degree to reach them.

The Bible also teaches that is a man will not work neither let him eat.

It wasn't but a few years ago that Americans were saving a negative 0.6% now the are saving 6%.

It may very well be a spiritual issue if one does not live simply. I have seen peopel whom I have sat down with them to help them with their finances because they are struggling financially and they do not want to give up certain things to get their finances under control. That is greed. That is lacking spiritually too.

 

Isn't this hypocritical?

Okay, but that's something you determine for yourself, not for others.

That's a pretty brazen judgment. You have no idea what that person may be doing with his/her money. There are rich philanthropists out there.

That was a particular problem in Thessolinica (sp?) because they were expecting Jesus to come back. So they weren't working. I think too many Christians take the view that everyone should work. Some can't due to mental illness or childcare issues.

I agree that if they cannot give up certain things to make their financial situation better, that is a problem. I don't know if it's always greed; that would be a case by case assessment and maybe we can't even know for sure.

I think what I was objecting to here is that Christians can or should determine for others what simple living is.

 

They are not pressing onto others what they do themselves. They are using the electricity in their work but not letting it interfere with their home life. It is well known that homes are different when even just the TV is turned off. Tha has been their point to me.

People judge themselves on the standard they see as the standard others hold.

You are right there are some. Philanthropy is much different than setting an example in paying a good wage and giving to others. My employer who got me started in business paid his employees very well and gave a lot away. It is a fact that for someone to be paid over one million dollars as a CEO while other employees are making minimum wage was unheard of years ago. It wasn't until too many years ago that it was about eight to one. A few years ago I was hired to turn a business around. When I began to turn it around and make money I was offered a huge salary increase and turned it down because I felt that as Jesus taught about leadership it was wrong to accept such a thing until the workers were served first. I told the company that I wanted the workers to get their raises first. My testimony is far more important than my bank account. Christian leaders need to keep in mind who they serve and who should come first.

That is very small in number compared to the number who can work. I grew up on a dairy farm. I am very much in favor of helping people who need the help well and not giving them a token to live on.


I agree that if they cannot give up certain things to make their financial situation better, that is a problem. I don't know if it's always greed; that would be a case by case assessment and maybe we can't even know for sure.[/quote] If I buy things I do not need and am unwilling to stop then what would you call that? There was a time when we had to use a calculator at the grocery store. There was a time when someone offered to give me a nice car and I turned it down because I could not afford the insurance.

I agree but I also believe that in the church we must teach responsibility and discipline with what we do have and what God has entrusted to us.

 

My point is that even if this is a good thing, it should not be held out as something all believers should do or as something that makes the Amish more spiritual.

And this is my point - the standard should not be the standard of others!

I am not sure; I would have to know more. Aside from that, I am not your judge on this nor should I be.

And your point is??

I think there are too many variables to do this. We can teach the principles of Christian living to the church and use Bible passages to show the principles, but we should not teach what the the application should be (i.e., you should not have TVs; you should not have expensive cars, etc.).

 

You misunderstood my point. The point was that we tend to hold the same standard of those around us.

Scripture is my judge. If I do not have the money to pay my bills and continue to spend on things I do not need then it is foolish and not in accord with scripture.

Prov. 3:27, 28, "27 Do not withhold good from those to whom it is due, When it is in your power to do it. Do not say to your neighbor, "Go, and come back, And tomorrow I will give it," When you have it with you."

Sometimes we may have to live on much less than we like.

As a church we must set boundaries guided by scripture. As we look at the history of the Christian church where do we see that extravagance made one more spiritual and used by God in greater ways? I see not one. I do see many cases where extravagance brought down people. Extravagance is easy to get used to and hard to rid ourselves of. It can much like a pet alligator we fed and then consumes us. So we must live our lives with discipline so that we are alert. It is the responsibility of the older people to teach the younger to be wise. Wisdom is the result of the application of scripture.

Discipelship is not a hands off approach. It is very much being transparent.

Living for Christ is a spiritual war not a recreation room.