I believe Paul was "back fitting" Matthias into "the Twelve." We know from Acts 1 that Matthias was in the company of those who witnessed the resurrected Lord. This is rather like the OT writers giving current Hebrew names for cities that were not yet called by that name when the event took place.
Who is the 12th apostle?
Discussion in '2005 Archive' started by natters, Apr 15, 2005.
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or a woman ????????????? (Rom 16) -
Which woman in Rom 16 is called an apostle? I missed that one.
Know Pheobe was a shamash, a servant, but don't see ANY "apostolic" implications in the chapter. -
Originally posted by TCassidy:
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Bob
I guess we just don't read the same stuff
The implication is VERY CLEAR in the Greek clause of Romans 16:7 which reads, "hoitines eisin episemoi en tois apostolois," because the Greek seems to allow for two translations: either "well known BY the apostles" OR "well known among the apostles." And, THERE is the implication.
For the English only reader, the NIV renders "They are outstanding AMONG the apostles." The NEB has, "They are eminent among the apostles." And, THERE is the implication!
For those who use commentaries, as I said, Bruce on Romans (ref above) thinks that Junia (s) WAS an apostle. So does does Cranfield in ICC. So does Kasemann , Romans (Erdmans, 1980). And, so does Harrison in EBC. And, THERE is the implication.
For those who use Greek aides, BAGD and TDNT translate the phrase to mean that these two were apostles. And, THERE is the implication.
Of course, I was being tongue in cheek about Junia (s) being one of the 12. BUT, he or she may have been an apostle.
IF Junia (s) is a she, and IF, Junia (s) is an apostle, then, that needs to be factored into our view of gender qualifications for ecclesiastical offices.
As oft is the case, IMO, there may be clues in the text of Rom 16:7 itself. But make no mistake, the issues are fairly difficult to resolve. If they were not, experts would not be in such disagreement re them.
A lover and a student of Biblical texts , IMO, does best when he/she is aware of the issues ( or "implications" ).
I wish you good studying of the Word we both love,
Bill -
On Rm. 16:7, I prefer the ancient reading prevailing in the large Consensus of Greek MSS (i.e. the Byzantines) which definitely reads the female name Junia, which later was altered to read as a masculine name preserved primarily in the Egyptian witnesses which introduced the corruption, probably because they didn't like the sound of a woman "apostle."
However, the whole of Rm. 16 seems to suggest an alternative meaning for "apostle" in Rm. 16:7, that which is also found in the following places:
2Co. 8:23: "Whether any do enquire of Titus, he is my partner and fellowhelper concerning you: or our brethren be enquired of, they are the messengers [Gk. apostles] of the churches, and the glory of Christ."
Php. 2:25: "Yet I supposed it necessary to send to you Epaphroditus, my brother, and companion in labour, and fellow soldier, but your messenger [Gk. apostle], and he that ministered to my wants."
In Romans 16 Paul is chiefly mentioning all the fellowlaborers and helpers and "messengers" or "missionaries", i.e., "apostles", of the churches. Andronicus and (his wife) Junia were of note among the missionaries or messengers. Paul even references that they were in Christ before him, indicating the possible similarity of occupation, i.e., missionary to the Gentiles.
Yours, Bluefalcon -
In fact no MSS have the circumflex over the ultima (indicating a masculine name). Such is just an editorial decision over those MSS that have no accent at all.
Yours, Bluefalcon -
Dr. Bob,
They drew straws! :D -
Peter and the disciples were told to wait in Jerusalem and pray. They weren't told to select another member.
They chose their 12th, later God chose his. -
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Your post doesn't disprove anything, even if you think it does. Sorry.
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Originally posted by Gunther:
Nowhere in the scripture do we see anything that would refute Matthias being the twelfth Apostle. -
You, or course, are free to believe whatever your want to. Everybody has the right to be wrong. -
So you think I deny inerrancy? Nice backhanded insult. I believe scripture also.
Matthias was counted with the 12 because that is who they picked. God never told them to do that. They did not obey what Christ said. Once again, Peter jumped the gun.
Tommy, I also believe the Scripture. I just don't think you have to miss the obvious.
God chose his apostle on the road to Damascus. I wonder why Matthias is never heard from again. -
To help those unfamiliar with Jewish Synagogue worship, a "shamash" was a male/female "servant" or helper who worked in the synagogue.
Almost ALL of NT church pattern is copied from the synagogue. When the Greek word "deacon" is used (servant), the serving that they would do in a church would be parallel to a "shamash".
Don't know too many historians that refute that.
So calling Pheb a "servant" (whether using the Greek or the Hebrew condept) is in order.
And Junia? Nice lady, well known BY the apostles. -
Yours, Bluefalcon -
I think "of note among the missionaries" or "among the messengers" is okay for Rm. 16:7. Obviously from 2Co. 8:23 and Php. 2:25 the early church meaning of the word for "apostle" did not always refer to the office of the Twelve. Paul was a "missionary" to the Gentiles, and "apostle" was the best greek word to demonstrate that special ambassadorial calling. Apparently, many others also had that calling, and I think Rm. 16:7 is a good example of "fellowprisoners", like Paul, being mentioned for their exemplary execution of their missionary role.
Yours, Bluefalcon
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