Who Says Only the Originals Have to Be Inspired?

Dr. Bob · Aug 25, 2004

Michelle, don't you see how "mystical" and "subjective" your answer is? Proof and Fact do NOT come from listening to voices in your head!

We mock the visions of Joan or the girls at Fatima. We laugh at Joseph Smith or Mary Eddy or Ellen White who all found "proof" in their minds and by the "spirit". It was demonic and deceptive.

That is truly scarey. I've fussed at you for many things in your past 1600+ posts, but I am concerned that you would ignore proof and fact and believe "by faith" - but faith in a man-made book and not in truth.

michelle · Aug 25, 2004

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michelle wrote:

Because I don't KNOW OR SPEAK HEBREW AND GREEK.

Most people, when they realize their ignorance, try to remedy it.

Diehard KJV-onlyists demand that it become the standard for everyone else.

You gotta laugh.

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Just because one doesn't know a foriegn language does not make them ingorant concerning this issue. What is, and should be important in this issue is the truth revealed in the scriptures, and acknowledging this FACT that we have them. The ignorance, sadly, is coming from those who feel they must turn to the Hebrew and Greek to try to prove the truth in our scriptures wrong, so as to condone the OBVIOUS ERRORS in the mv's.
This stems from one's ignorance to the truth revealed in the scriptures. For if one was not ignorant to the truth, they would not have the need to go to a foriegn language in the first place. It is doubt of the truth, or denial of the truth, or for compromise of errors, that one must go to this most hypocritical belief. To call me ignorarnt for acknowledging the truth, doesn't say much for you.

love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

Dr. Bob · Aug 25, 2004

Michelle, this is why pastors (I pray your pastor has been educated) go to university and seminary, taking years of study of original languages, so that instead of following a man-made doctrine and missing the meaning of God's Word because they have only a cursory English knowledge, they can understand and share the wonderful truths of the WORDS God inspired.

Let me recommend An Interlinear Greek-English NT by George Ricker Berry. It uses the Greek text of Stephanos (basis for the TR), has the KJV1769 in the margin for easy reference, and a LITERAL ENGLISH translation under each Greek word.

It also has critical apparatus to show where other Greek manuscripts have variant readings.

It also has a lexicon (dictionary) and synonym section. About $20 pb and worth every penny.

michelle · Aug 25, 2004

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Michelle, don't you see how "mystical" and "subjective" your answer is? Proof and Fact do NOT come from listening to voices in your head!
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That seems to be the problem of many on these boards who are mv proponents, to MISS/OVERLOOK and CUT OUT, or IGNORE what was said. This must have something to do with the fact that many of the versions they use, are guilty of doing this very same thing with the word of truth. Please read VERY CLOSELY what it is I said. That way, you can keep from falsely accusing me of something I am not.

Read closely:

"If you own the true Bible, out of the plethora of counterfits you probably also own, open up the KJB and start reading from Gen.1 - Rev.22:21. Therein lies your PROOF. Then, feel free to compare it with the counterfits, and you will clearly see the true, from the real (my mistake - should read "false"). And you don't even have to know the Greek and Hebrew languages to see it and know it. One more word of advice - Don't ignore the voice of the Lord speaking to you when you encounter it. You however, will not be able to do this, if you keep the shades of doubt and of a false label/bias upon your eyes.

This advice is not mystical, but the truth. The Lord speaks to us through his word of truth. We can and do hear his voice. John 10:26-30.

Many of you are in danger of calling God's truth of being a lie and heretical. Beware.

love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

robycop3 · Aug 25, 2004

Michelle:If you own the true Bible, out of the plethora of counterfits you probably also own, open up the KJB and start reading from Gen.1 - Rev.22:21.

M'am, I've most likely done JUST THAT at least 50 times...and I've done the same with the replica of the REAL kjv - the AV 1611 - more times than that...and I've read at least fifteen other versions cover -to-cover at least twice.

And the only 'counterfeits' I own are the NWT and Book of Mormon.

Therein lies your PROOF.

Proof of WHAT, besides the fact that the KJV exists?

Then, feel free to compare it with the counterfits, and you will clearly see the true, from the real.

I have three editions of the AV/KJV, each different from any other. Please tell us which one is the "official" edition, and why.

Actually, here's the true and false:

True: God provides us His word AS HE CHOOSES.

False: The KJVO myth, or any other One-Version-Onlyism myth.

And you don't even have to know the Greek and Hebrew languages to see it and know it.

So, we're just to take YOUR word for it..."It aint the KJV so it's wrong"? I see...

One more word of advice - Don't ignore the voice of the Lord speaking to you when you encounter it.

Practice what you preach. He's spoken to you in this board by allowing various people to post CLEAR, INCONTROVERTIBLE PROOF that the KJVO myth is wrong.

You however, will not be able to do this, if you keep the shades of doubt and of a false label/bias upon your eyes.

I dumped the KJVO myth before it ever got started with me.

michelle · Aug 25, 2004

--------------------------------------------------
Let me recommend An Interlinear Greek-English NT by George Ricker Berry. It uses the Greek text of Stephanos (basis for the TR), has the KJV1769 in the margin for easy reference, and a LITERAL ENGLISH translation under each Greek word.

It also has critical apparatus to show where other Greek manuscripts have variant readings.

It also has a lexicon (dictionary) and synonym section. About $20 pb and worth every penny.
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I don't rely upon other men for my understanding of the truth in God's word. I rely upon my teacher, who is the Holy Spirit of truth for my understanding of the scriptures. John 10, 16,17.

love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

Scott J · Aug 25, 2004

Originally posted by michelle:
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Let me recommend An Interlinear Greek-English NT by George Ricker Berry. It uses the Greek text of Stephanos (basis for the TR), has the KJV1769 in the margin for easy reference, and a LITERAL ENGLISH translation under each Greek word.

It also has critical apparatus to show where other Greek manuscripts have variant readings.

It also has a lexicon (dictionary) and synonym section. About $20 pb and worth every penny.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I don't rely upon other men for my understanding of the truth in God's word. I rely upon my teacher, who is the Holy Spirit of truth for my understanding of the scriptures. John 10, 16,17.

love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

If you have a spirit that told you to believe lies then it is not the Holy Spirit... and we have proven categorically that much of what you believe, no doubt sincerely, are lies.

God didn't inspire the KJV translators.

The words they chose for translation are not the "very words of God".

The wording of the KJV is not preservation of anything. The wording of the KJV didn't exist before the date of whichever revision you are using. It is the message that the KJV preserves... just like other faithful versions.

There is more than one valid way to express the same thoughts or ideas.

These are simple truths that you absolutely refuse to deal with.

robycop3 · Aug 25, 2004

Michelle:Just because one doesn't know a foriegn language does not make them ingorant concerning this issue.

But, when you say the SOURCES from which our Bible translations come are irrelevant, it DOES show ignorance...especially when you turn around and say the MVs came from faulty mss.

What is, and should be important in this issue is the truth revealed in the scriptures, and acknowledging this FACT that we have them.

And this FACT includes the sub-fact that the Scriptures we read in English are TRANSLATIONS.

The ignorance, sadly, is coming from those who feel they must turn to the Hebrew and Greek to try to prove the truth in our scriptures wrong, so as to condone the OBVIOUS ERRORS in the mv's.

Please tell us why YOU think there are 'obvious errors' in the MVs if the Greek/Hebrew mss are irrelevant.

This stems from one's ignorance to the truth revealed in the scriptures. For if one was not ignorant to the truth, they would not have the need to go to a foriegn language in the first place.

The TRUTH in the Scriptures are that they have been TRANSLATED from the beginning of Christianity. GOD HIMSELF translated them in Acts 2. And both Matthew and Mark translated Jesus' Aramaic He spoke from the cross into Greek. Thus, we have the Scriptures saying they were translated, but they certainly do NOT say the SOURCES were irrelevant.

It is doubt of the truth, or denial of the truth, or for compromise of errors, that one must go to this most hypocritical belief. To call me ignorarnt for acknowledging the truth, doesn't say much for you.

But you SHOW your ignorance by DENYING or IGNORING the plain truth. When asked for PROOF, you merely reply, "Read the KJV". This is pure circular reasoning, I.E. "The KJV is always right; the MVs don't agree w/the KJV; therefore the KJV is right". Circular reasoning proves nothing; it merely shows the "reason-er" is clueless.

robycop3 · Aug 25, 2004

Michelle:I don't rely upon other men for my understanding of the truth in God's word. I rely upon my teacher, who is the Holy Spirit of truth for my understanding of the scriptures. John 10, 16,17.

Then you don't need ANY Bible.

Scott J · Aug 25, 2004

Originally posted by michelle:
John 10, 16,17.

Michelle, Please explain how this scripture proves that the KJV is the "very words of God"... and if you can't, please stop twisting and abusing the Bible you claim to love and accept as your final authority.

robycop3 · Aug 25, 2004

Michelle:I don't have a problem with this. This is fine. But when you come and try to tell me and others, that my Bible, the scriptures are in ERROR due to your vain interpretation of the Greek and Hebrew, then I HAVE A PROBLEM.

Yes, you DO...but not in the sense you're intending here. If the translation doesn't agree with the source, IT'S WRONG...plain fact. Thus, I reject the NWT, not because it's a version made especially for a specific ccult, but because IT OFTEN DEPARTS FROM ANY KNOWN GREEK OR HEBREW SOURCE. And CLEARLY, there are places where the KJV dies NOT follow its sources accurately as possible.

I also have a problem with the hypocracy exposed of many who claim their condoning of the mv's because of the language of the KJB. To sit there and give the excuse that the KJB is too difficult for the common man to read and understand today (as if it was some sort of foreign language on its own - to which is false and a lie), to then turn around and say we need to learn and understand the Greek and Hebrew is HYPOCRACY!

The KJV was written in the best English of its day, as was every other version before it...and those of today. And if you blindly accept what some men wrote without verification, THAT'S true hypocrisy.

and it is the ONLY WAY ONE CAN justify their condonement of those obvious errors in the mv's. This is unacceptable to me, and I outright reject and oppose it, and call it for what it is.

That's because YOU DON'T WANNA FACE REALITY. We PLAINLY PROVED to you that "Easter" in Acts 12:4 was a poor rendering, but you simply refused to accept that truth...while at the same time offering NO reason why what we said WASN'T the truth, except some mystic excuse that "God chose Easter". GOD did NOT...one of the human TRANSLATORS chose it. God chose "pascha", which in Luke's time meant only "Passover" and that's what LUKE wrote under God's influence between 62 & 80 AD. That's plain, simple, incontrovertible TRUTH, Michelle...that you simply REFUSE TO ACCEPT for whatever reason. You cannot begin to refute the FIRST WORD of this example...but you continue to tell us WE'RE wrong! And you wonder why we laugh at you?....

michelle · Aug 25, 2004

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That's because YOU DON'T WANNA FACE REALITY. We PLAINLY PROVED to you that "Easter" in Acts 12:4 was a poor rendering, but you simply refused to accept that truth...
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And the truth was PLAINLY PROVED to you with scriptures, and history, that Easter is CORRECT. You deny and reject the the scriptural and historical PROOF, and the providence of God over his word of truth in our language, and accept the error, because you have doubted God's word, in order to prove a lie. Its seems, according to many, God doesn't care, nor has providence over the accuracy of his word in a translation - only in the Greek and Hebrew. As for me, I will never idolize a language. I accept and receive the word of God as HE has provided it so wonderfully for me and generations of believers in my own language. Praise the Lord.

love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

robycop3 · Aug 25, 2004

Michelle(quoting herself):"If you own the true Bible, out of the plethora of counterfits you probably also own, open up the KJB and start reading from Gen.1 - Rev.22:21. Therein lies your PROOF.

proof of WHAT????? that the KJV exists?

Then, feel free to compare it with the counterfits, and you will clearly see the true, from the real (my mistake - should read "false"). And you don't even have to know the Greek and Hebrew languages to see it and know it.

Right. Just take Michelle's word for it. She's used the cutting-edge technology of CIRCULAR REASONING to show us we're wrong. God forbid that we should actually consult the SOURCES from which a given translation is made if someone points out there's an error in it. Why? Michelle says we don't need'em! HER reasoning replaces all other methods of proofreading! SHE KNOWS the MVs have errors! How? Because THEY AINT THE KJV! And how does she know the KJV's always absolutely correct, every word? BECAUSE IT'S THE KJV!

How can pore lil ole us stand up to genius such as THAT?

AVL1984 · Aug 25, 2004

Originally posted by michelle:
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Michelle, don't you see how "mystical" and "subjective" your answer is? Proof and Fact do NOT come from listening to voices in your head!
--------------------------------------------------

That seems to be the problem of many on these boards who are mv proponents, to MISS/OVERLOOK and CUT OUT, or IGNORE what was said. This must have something to do with the fact that many of the versions they use, are guilty of doing this very same thing with the word of truth. Please read VERY CLOSELY what it is I said. That way, you can keep from falsely accusing me of something I am not.

Read closely:

"If you own the true Bible, out of the plethora of counterfits you probably also own, open up the KJB and start reading from Gen.1 - Rev.22:21. Therein lies your PROOF. Then, feel free to compare it with the counterfits, and you will clearly see the true, from the real (my mistake - should read "false"). And you don't even have to know the Greek and Hebrew languages to see it and know it. One more word of advice - Don't ignore the voice of the Lord speaking to you when you encounter it. You however, will not be able to do this, if you keep the shades of doubt and of a false label/bias upon your eyes.

This advice is not mystical, but the truth. The Lord speaks to us through his word of truth. We can and do hear his voice. John 10:26-30.

Many of you are in danger of calling God's truth of being a lie and heretical. Beware.

love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

Just reading back through this, you attack God's Word in the form of the MV's by calling them "counterfits", and then explicitly accuse them of deleting, leaving out, etc., things from God's Word. Yet you NEVER address the underlying texts issues. You consistantly refer to the KJ VERSION as the KJBible, never acknowledging what the translators themselves have acknowledged. You are guilty of bibliolatry, trying to cause problems between brethren, disrespect to not only the moderators of the forum, but to other posters as well. You're closing line of "love in Jesus Christ our lord and saviour" is the most hypocritical thing of all, as you have no love for your brothers or sisters here, or you would not falsely accuse them. I think you need to take your kjV and read the ten commandments again.

AVL1984

AVL1984 · Aug 25, 2004

Originally posted by michelle:
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That's because YOU DON'T WANNA FACE REALITY. We PLAINLY PROVED to you that "Easter" in Acts 12:4 was a poor rendering, but you simply refused to accept that truth...
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And the truth was PLAINLY PROVED to you with scriptures, and history, that Easter is CORRECT. You deny and reject the the scriptural and historical PROOF, and the providence of God over his word of truth in our language, and accept the error, because you have doubted God's word, in order to prove a lie. Its seems, according to many, God doesn't care, nor has providence over the accuracy of his word in a translation - only in the Greek and Hebrew. As for me, I will never idolize a language. I accept and receive the word of God as HE has provided it so wonderfully for me and generations of believers in my own language. Praise the Lord.

love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

May the Lord help us, we need the help of a "cult-buster" to bring michelle out of the mindless zombyism of KVJO and circular reasoning.

Anyone know one???

AVL1984

AVL1984 · Aug 25, 2004

Originally posted by michelle:

I don't rely upon other men for my understanding of the truth in God's word. I rely upon my teacher, who is the Holy Spirit of truth for my understanding of the scriptures. John 10, 16,17.

love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

The problem is this, your guidance can't be from the Holy Spirit because you're totally misinterpreting those chapters of John. You truly need to take a class in how to divide God's word properly, as it is clear you cannot do it now. Might I suggest a nearby Bible college or at least a book on hermeneutics?

AVL1984

robycop3 · Aug 25, 2004

Michelle:And the truth was PLAINLY PROVED to you with scriptures, and history, that Easter is CORRECT.

Yerp! YOU'RE right and LUKE was wrong. Thanx for setting me straight.

You deny and reject the the scriptural and historical PROOF, and the providence of God over his word of truth in our language, and accept the error, because you have doubted God's word, in order to prove a lie.

So now I'm to deny what LUKE wrote, in favor of what some baby-sprinkler wrote? I see...

Its seems, according to many, God doesn't care, nor has providence over the accuracy of his word in a translation - only in the Greek and Hebrew.

Well, all He did was PHYSICALLY SPEAK his word in Greek/Hebrew/Aramaic. You're telling us he didn't REALLY mean what he said to His writers in those languages & that He had a group of Neo-Catholics correct his mistakes from 1604 till 1611. Riiight...

As for me, I will never idolize a language.

Seems as if you already HAVE, that language being ELIZABETHAN ENGLISH....

I accept and receive the word of God as HE has provided it so wonderfully for me and generations of believers in my own language. Praise the Lord.

So do I, in MY own language. I'm not 400 years old & neither is my language style.

Scott J · Aug 25, 2004

Originally posted by Scott J:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by michelle:
John 10, 16,17.

Michelle, Please explain how this scripture proves that the KJV is the "very words of God"... and if you can't, please stop twisting and abusing the Bible you claim to love and accept as your final authority. </font>[/QUOTE]Still waitin'.

robycop3 · Aug 25, 2004

AVL1984:May the Lord help us, we need the help of a "cult-buster" to bring michelle out of the mindless zombyism of KVJO and circular reasoning. Anyone know one???

Well, I useta deprogram "Moonies", but I was successful ONLY when the person actually WANTED to have their cultic "knowledge" replaced with the TRUTH, which COULDN'T be refuted.

If God's willing, He'll snap Michelle out of it. In the meantime, we must keep showing all the other readers and lurkers the incorrectness of her ideas in the hope that no new Christian or one weak in faith falls as hard for a false doctrine as SHE has. But he helps OUR cause with her own highly-erudite reasoning.

Ransom · Aug 25, 2004

Just because one doesn't know a foriegn language does not make them ingorant concerning this issue.

When someone demands that a text in translation (the KJV) be regarded as more authoritative than the texts it was translated from (Greek and Hebrew), because that someone does not know Hebrew nor Greek, then that someone is demanding that her ignorance (heretofore demonstrated, coincidentally, in 1611 prior posts) be the standard. As I said.

It is to laugh.

Who Says Only the Originals Have to Be Inspired?

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